Dog Behaviorists - Page 5

I don 't care what school a person attended to get that degree, or how many books they read, IF the knowledge wasn 't obtained hands on, what do they really know?
   Now a days you can be certified as an expert in any, and everything through on line study.Usually the problem someone is trying to correct or figure out was crested by a person. 
    Most animals are ruined, by, sometimes,well intentioned trained professionals. People trust their animals for training to some unknown trainer, based on a certificate that hangs on their wall.
    half of these people should have their own heads examined first.lol.
I would tell anyone that needed help with a dog, do not look to someone claiming to be a behaviorist, but look to a proven trainer. Also, dogs usually misbehave for a reason, and usually the person looking to fix the dogs problem, IS THAT REASON.

Thank you for your contribution, but, in this thread, the OP was asking about DOG Behaviorists, not animal ones and my posts reflected that, however, since you took the time to respond and defend the academicians, you must surely know of a dog behaviorist who actually works as one daily.

Hired Dog, I know we are both trying to be civil, but I did clarify this point, what part was not clear about how one would go about doing this in an academic setting?  Did you understand my brief explanation of the process of doing applied research/field work in grad school?

I know three personally, one has a Psychology PhD, one is a vet that did an additional PhD and the other is a PhD holding zoologist that used to work in Zoo's.  All do and have always done canines exclusively, the zoologist however, in the early days studied wolves and African Wild dogs before getting out of zoo work.  These people are not SeaWorld style animal trainers and only one does competitive dog sports.  Still not sure what you expect someone to do beyond working with dogs all day for decades, for pay and backing up with higher education.  Its no small feat.
 

I will take the experience of someone who has been involved with dogs for several decades, training and working with one or many on a daily basis because Momo, things are much different in the real world then they are in a sterile lab. Have a great day!

Again I tried to briefly explain this, this kind of work is not all done in a lab or classroom, it includes field work under uncontrolled conditions, just as a professional trainer would encounter in their private practice.  Again please be specific in where you would like to get clarifications.  I will add a PhD is not something that can be finished in less than 3-4 years, many times 5-6 years.  Though that is not quite a decade, assuming someone is young, post graduation these "academics" will hit their first decade doing "dog based work" in another 3-4 years.  You should also note that would not preclude them from doing what the nonacademic professional trainers do day-to-day, except at the end the academics types will have done applied research and have a PhD to boot.
 

I don 't care what school a person attended to get that degree, or how many books they read, IF the knowledge wasn 't obtained hands on, what do they really know?
   Now a days you can be certified as an expert in any, and everything through on line study.Usually the problem someone is trying to correct or figure out was crested by a person. 
    Most animals are ruined, by, sometimes,well intentioned trained professionals. People trust their animals for training to some unknown trainer, based on a certificate that hangs on their wall.
    half of these people should have their own heads examined first.lol.
I would tell anyone that needed help with a dog, do not look to someone claiming to be a behaviorist, but look to a proven trainer. Also, dogs usually misbehave for a reason, and usually the person looking to fix the dogs problem, IS THAT REASON.

kitkat3478 I will go out on a limb here and say the real disconnect is not academics versus nonacademics, its getting more academics to recognize and/or be involved in things like IPO, herding, bitework sports, etc and getting nonacademics to recognize the value in obtaining formal education.  So the real issue is as I stated before, proving ones abilities should be the number one issue, BUT we now live in a credential based society that has been forced on all of us.  That won't stop a great trainer from getting many clients and having a successful consulting dog training business, but without the credentials it will bar that same person from proving academics wrong or going toe-to-toe with them in the larger policy and academic discussions.  People with know-how seem to think they can completely avoid the credential game, not realizing they will never get a seat at the table until they do get into the credential game. 

Native American figured this same thing out a LONG TIME AGO and started sending their OWN PEOPLE with full paid scholarships to get PhD's in history, archeology, anthropology, etc, so they could go toe-to-toe with academics who's findings were outright lies, flawed or incorrect.  Nonacademic dog trainers need to get on that train now, get some formal education and prove the academics "in their own words" that they are incorrect.  Right now many are missing the train and will be left behind in regards to direction and flow public policy and the ever evolving and changing mindset of the average dog owner.  Get some formal schooling done, pull up a seat and make them look bad at thier own game.  They've already done it as far as the public is concerned, why not you?






 

Nonacademic dog trainers need to get on that train now, get some formal education and prove the academics "in their own words" that they are incorrect. 

That's not much better than the native American angle.

I disagree with you..........momo.

you edited?
now i gotta read all that again?
 

That's not much better than the native American angle.

I disagree with you..........momo.

Then you've got a totally different type comprehension issue here because the Native Americans took the fight back to the academics turf and won a few battles along the way.  If you think thats a policy failure, than I can't imagine anyone ever taking your opinion seriously both inside or outside of academics.

I guess its safe to assume you are one of the know-how people who think they can completely avoid the credential game AND expect to get a seat at the table with academics, to prove them wrong, without yourself getting into the credential game.  That doesn't sound silly to you?  Same thing happens in engineering, law and medicine, etc.  Why is dog training and behavior any different?

Native Americans took their fight to the media and to the courts, i don't think they were waiting for a degree.
If I were to enter the corporate world I could not do so without the paper, that's a fact.
But to say your limited in all aspects of life without it is false.

Native Americans took their fight to the media and to the courts, i don't think they were waiting for a degree.

You "Think"?  Its a FACT that Native American Tribes have spent a large sum of money among them, over many decades, training their own Docotrate level academics for "legal" purposes.  All you have done is proven my position that having a formal education, in a particular subject matter, is usually a good idea, before thinking you can throw your hat into the ring under the premise of "I think"!

Here is a website outlining ONE of these types of initiatives:

http://www.saa.org/AbouttheSociety/Awards/SAANativeAmericanScholarships/tabid/163/Default.aspx

I can easily list hundreds more and possibly even the total in hundreds of millions of dollars spent on native American only academic scholarships, used for the sole purpose of graduating Native American academics to counter the works of non-native academics.

Yes,
they probably have, but that's not how it all began.
It has nothing to do with a (behaviorist ) being a credible title that warrants respect.
Also some people don't care to throw their hat in the ring, some people have no respect for (rings) period.

I had a partner once, forty years ago, he attended school while I worked my trade, I always called him a professional student.
He studied art and wood working while I worked with masters.
I can build a home, a chicken coup, a chair or a chest of drawers, I do works of art, while he remodels cabinets with veneer and premade doors.

Anyway,
i have no respect for paper, never have, to many well educated idiots along the way have convinced me it's meaningless.


 

Momo,
please complete your post before you submit it....lol

EDIT:
In your defense I guess I should admit, I had to acquire licenses along the way, bonds insurance etc.  papers.

I understand exactly what you are saying momo. I just hate to think how many people entrust their dogs to someone for training, because they do have that piece of paper,. If you got the paper, you also need hands on.
    If you got the hands on, you don't necessarily need the paper to be 'effective'.
   You just need to know who you have working with your dogs, that's the only point I am making.