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by Mike D on 02 February 2014 - 00:02
Bubba,
"The tracking used in IPO 1-3 is an obedience exercise more so than real tracking"
You said it again, but still haven't explained what this means. Saying it over and over again doesn't help me understand. Please explain.
Mike
"The tracking used in IPO 1-3 is an obedience exercise more so than real tracking"
You said it again, but still haven't explained what this means. Saying it over and over again doesn't help me understand. Please explain.
Mike
by bubbabooboo on 02 February 2014 - 03:02
Like much in IPO 1-3 there is more style than substance to the footstep style tracking required. Obedience tracking in IPO means that it serves no useful purpose to force the dog to put it's head down, go very slow and put it's nose in every footstep .. it's all for show and/or style ... the dog could do it better and faster without the stupid human rules for this little game called IPO tracking. IPO tracking is about asking the dog to do something unnatural and requiring the animal to comply with (obedience) the rules of this unnatural test. IPO tracking is also a lot like "focused heeling" which is also an unnatural and unnecessary part of IPO that serves nothing more than style .. not substance. I don't ever recall my dogs walking around with their heads pointing straight up at the sky as part of their everyday life but yet this is what IPO focused heeling is asking the dog to do .. an unnatural act done for the sake of style and that serves no useful purpose. If you want to put a saddle on your dog and let a monkey ride him in a dog race that would also be an obedience exercise as most dogs never wear a saddle or have a monkey to ride them in a race as part of their everyday lives .. and it would be much more entertaining than IPO tracking is to watch for the spectators and the dogs would like to race with a monkey on their back a lot more than doing a monotonus IPO tracking routine
by Mike D on 02 February 2014 - 04:02
Ummm....maybe getting closer.
How does the dog know he is getting his nose into each footstep?
Mike
How does the dog know he is getting his nose into each footstep?
Mike
by vk4gsd on 02 February 2014 - 04:02
the only thing my dogs do naturaly is eat, sleep, shit and hump - hardly high level sport or a breed test.
by OGBS on 02 February 2014 - 04:02
Bubba,
I pledge to do everything I can to get the AWDF to change their name if you will do everything you can to get the GSDCA to stop calling their dogs German Shepherds, and if you will get the WDA to stop calling themselves the Working Dog Association. Instead of GSDCA and the WDA better names might be the American Showline Shepherd Dog Club and the German Style Conformation Association.
It seems your hipocrisy knows no bounds.
I pledge to do everything I can to get the AWDF to change their name if you will do everything you can to get the GSDCA to stop calling their dogs German Shepherds, and if you will get the WDA to stop calling themselves the Working Dog Association. Instead of GSDCA and the WDA better names might be the American Showline Shepherd Dog Club and the German Style Conformation Association.
It seems your hipocrisy knows no bounds.
by Smiley on 02 February 2014 - 16:02
Bubba,
I actually agree with you on this point!!! It's so funny you mention the focused heeling as that is what I am dealing with now. I started my East German working line dog in AKC like most new people. We did rally and obedience, got her CGC, HIC, and TC, all before going to IPO. My akc trainer has several OTCH dogs and she does not train for the focused heeling attention. She said as long as my dog is by my side and working happily than it doesn't matter if they stare at me every single second. She thinks the dog should be looking at you most of the time to check in. I switched to IPO and we are at a standstill as it is just not acceptable in IPO to not have the dog staring at you every single second. It is so unnatural!! So, let's talk natural....Every single dog I have trained with (2 IPO clubs) on the field uses both prong and e-collar to get that focused attention at heeling. I just can't bring myself to do it in the name of sport.
Does anyone know if I can still pass IPO 1 if my dog is just walking by my side, mostly looking at me, and if she breaks she checks right back in with me? Will I fail instantly? My IPO trainers both say I will but I don't know if it's true. Can I pass with a 70 or is it an instant fail?
In regard to tracking, I have heard several things. I have heard that an IPO dog can pass AKC tracking but not the other way around. I started with AKC tracking at a tracking clinic. The dogs did not have their nose to the ground every step like in IPO. But, so far, I have not had to use any unnatural coercion to get my dog to track with her nose down every step. I just used food in training and now she keeps her head down while tracking. No biggie. I have less of a problem with that as I do not have to use unnatural, painful methods to train.
I actually agree with you on this point!!! It's so funny you mention the focused heeling as that is what I am dealing with now. I started my East German working line dog in AKC like most new people. We did rally and obedience, got her CGC, HIC, and TC, all before going to IPO. My akc trainer has several OTCH dogs and she does not train for the focused heeling attention. She said as long as my dog is by my side and working happily than it doesn't matter if they stare at me every single second. She thinks the dog should be looking at you most of the time to check in. I switched to IPO and we are at a standstill as it is just not acceptable in IPO to not have the dog staring at you every single second. It is so unnatural!! So, let's talk natural....Every single dog I have trained with (2 IPO clubs) on the field uses both prong and e-collar to get that focused attention at heeling. I just can't bring myself to do it in the name of sport.
Does anyone know if I can still pass IPO 1 if my dog is just walking by my side, mostly looking at me, and if she breaks she checks right back in with me? Will I fail instantly? My IPO trainers both say I will but I don't know if it's true. Can I pass with a 70 or is it an instant fail?
In regard to tracking, I have heard several things. I have heard that an IPO dog can pass AKC tracking but not the other way around. I started with AKC tracking at a tracking clinic. The dogs did not have their nose to the ground every step like in IPO. But, so far, I have not had to use any unnatural coercion to get my dog to track with her nose down every step. I just used food in training and now she keeps her head down while tracking. No biggie. I have less of a problem with that as I do not have to use unnatural, painful methods to train.
by susie on 02 February 2014 - 22:02
" Does anyone know if I can still pass IPO 1 if my dog is just walking by my side, mostly looking at me, and if she breaks she checks right back in with me? Will I fail instantly? "
You won´t loose one single point, as long as your dog´s right shoulderblade is close to your left side of body and he doesn´t look unhappy. Who are your IPO trainers ?
You won´t loose one single point, as long as your dog´s right shoulderblade is close to your left side of body and he doesn´t look unhappy. Who are your IPO trainers ?
by Mike D on 02 February 2014 - 22:02
"Does anyone know if I can still pass IPO 1 if my dog is just walking by my side, mostly looking at me, and if she breaks she checks right back in with me? Will I fail instantly? My IPO trainers both say I will but I don't know if it's true. Can I pass with a 70 or is it an instant fail?"
Go to an IPO trial. Watch the performances and then listen to the critique and the scores.
Oh...and find a trainer that actually knows something about IPO.
by Smiley on 03 February 2014 - 03:02
Mike and Susie.....thank you! I have gone to trials but all the IPO 1 dogs are robotic with attention.
My first IPO trainer kicked me out because I refused to use a prong to get the constant attention at heeling. She looks most of the time, sometimes breaks, then looks back. I figure she is looking most of the time and when she breaks always checks back in really quickly and her actual position by my side doesn't change- just the fact she might not be constantly staring at me 100% of time..
So, I found another trainer and he trains Regional Champions and dogs dogs/handlers who compete Nationally so they are pretty intense though extremely friendly and supportive. So, I know their standard is very high and I can't fault them for that. They are all very kind and encouraging. I understand that their standard may be different from mine. I think that is where the miscommunication might have come in. Their standard is very high so they passed it on to me. I don't have to use a prong or e-collar and he instead showed me how to pump her up with play beforehand to get better attention. I had never done that before! I will say...they have all been so encouraging to us.
I am SOOOOO relieved to know that we can still do IPO 1. I jumped up and down screaming when I saw your responses. Not everyone wants to comepete Nationally. Some of us just want to do our best with the time and dog we have. My dog is almost 3 and we came to IPO late. The rest of her obedience is great. Her protection work is great (her favorite and best aprt). Her tracking is very good for our current level as she shows great focus. We are just straight lines but have been making them progressively longer.
Thank you guys! If anyone knows any youtube videos of dogs in IPO who are not robotic in attention than please let me know!!! I couldnt find any!!
Thanks again!!!!
My first IPO trainer kicked me out because I refused to use a prong to get the constant attention at heeling. She looks most of the time, sometimes breaks, then looks back. I figure she is looking most of the time and when she breaks always checks back in really quickly and her actual position by my side doesn't change- just the fact she might not be constantly staring at me 100% of time..
So, I found another trainer and he trains Regional Champions and dogs dogs/handlers who compete Nationally so they are pretty intense though extremely friendly and supportive. So, I know their standard is very high and I can't fault them for that. They are all very kind and encouraging. I understand that their standard may be different from mine. I think that is where the miscommunication might have come in. Their standard is very high so they passed it on to me. I don't have to use a prong or e-collar and he instead showed me how to pump her up with play beforehand to get better attention. I had never done that before! I will say...they have all been so encouraging to us.
I am SOOOOO relieved to know that we can still do IPO 1. I jumped up and down screaming when I saw your responses. Not everyone wants to comepete Nationally. Some of us just want to do our best with the time and dog we have. My dog is almost 3 and we came to IPO late. The rest of her obedience is great. Her protection work is great (her favorite and best aprt). Her tracking is very good for our current level as she shows great focus. We are just straight lines but have been making them progressively longer.
Thank you guys! If anyone knows any youtube videos of dogs in IPO who are not robotic in attention than please let me know!!! I couldnt find any!!
Thanks again!!!!
by Unknown on 03 February 2014 - 13:02
Susie Said "You won´t loose one single point, as long as your dog´s right shoulderblade is close to your left side of body and he doesn´t look unhappy. Who are your IPO trainers ?"
I am sorry susie but this statement is not correct. You will absolutely loose points for not having good attention.
But you are correct that it is not failure. You can absolutely pass no problem with the heeling you describe, but you will loose points.
From FCI Ruls:
Page 53
During all exercises a happy work ethic and the required concentration must be displayed towards the
handler. Attention must be paid to the happy work ethic in conjunction with the correct execution of the
work and will be evaluated as such.
Page 54
From a straight basic
position, the dog is to follow the handler (HF) at the “heel” command in an attentive, happy and straight
manner with his shoulder blade at knee height and to the left of the handler (HF) and sits straight,
independently and quickly at the halt.
Frank
I am sorry susie but this statement is not correct. You will absolutely loose points for not having good attention.
But you are correct that it is not failure. You can absolutely pass no problem with the heeling you describe, but you will loose points.
From FCI Ruls:
Page 53
During all exercises a happy work ethic and the required concentration must be displayed towards the
handler. Attention must be paid to the happy work ethic in conjunction with the correct execution of the
work and will be evaluated as such.
Page 54
From a straight basic
position, the dog is to follow the handler (HF) at the “heel” command in an attentive, happy and straight
manner with his shoulder blade at knee height and to the left of the handler (HF) and sits straight,
independently and quickly at the halt.
Frank
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