Another Attempt to Take Over the AWDF - Page 9

There are an awful lot of people working Obedience in the UK, with
numerous breeds, and some doing IPO with mainly GSDs, and they
get their dogs to look up at them in 'focus' - yet neither the e-collar
nor the prong collar are in common use here.
Watch the Videos Margaret NJ and Ulf put on PDB of them working
various of their dogs.

Smiley said "Can anyone answer me if they can get the same exact level of focused heeling without a prong or e-collar?  Nobody seems to be able to tell me and I am new to IPO. Every single dog on the training field with me from two clubs uses one but most use both. E-collar use is huge. 

I am just curious as I don't want to use them. I don't like how their dogs scream when they shock them for not giving attention or whatever. The constant barrage of screams and whines unsettles me. How can that build a good relationship with your dog.There has to be a better way...."

 If you are using a E-Collar and the dog screams, it is TOO HIGH!....If someone has a constant barrage of screams and whines then they do not know what they are doing with a E-collar.

I use the e-collar when I need too, here is a video of my dog for BH, I had not ever used a e-collar on him at this point. But you can see he jumps out of position a few times from just over enthusiastic.
I do marker training, the clicker marks the correct behavior and the e collar marks the incorrect behavior with a low level momentary stim, no scream, no whine, no movement at all, just a marker....It makes things much clearer for the dog....when you train, things should be black and white, but whithout any black, there is no white....

BH Video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuTZX6133hQ

Training video at 15 months old

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3GRhDB7FXM



 

Thank you all for your answers. I appreciate it!! This whole Ipo experience has been so frustrating. Even finding a group to train with has taken over a year. First, the DVG people didn't want us. Then, I tried another group who became Mondio and PSA (I may have those letters wrong) and said i should find an IPO group. Then, I joined WDA and there was only 1 club in my area (next state over) and they wouldn't let me in as they were filled with a breeder's puppy buyers. So, I did my part and volunteered at WDA sieger show and went to big WDA meeting. Still, found no connections to help me. Then, I dropped WDA and joined USCA. Two clubs were too far and I am sorry..I'm a single parent and work and can't devote my life to traveling 6 hours each way to train. it's just not that important to me to sacrifice my family. The close clubs were full and wouldn't even let me train with them. Finally, got in with one group who used club trainer and field to train extra days. Got kicked out for not using prong because my dog gives attention 75-90% of the time but not 100%. I mean who really cares.  I don't.  I am having fun training IPO but I don't care about getting the most points. I don't care about being high in trial. I don't care about being a Regional or National Champion. I justw ant to have fun and ENJOY MY DOG. My dog is my pet and not my tool for sport. Next, I found a guy that trains people in a group. These people are very competitive like people who will show at regionals and the Working Dog Championship (is that the ohio one..they said this training event was in ohio). They use prongs and e-collars and the stick thing that zaps the dog if he tries to renage when he is upposed to out. however, so far, they ahven't pressured me to use any of it. The new trainer showed me how to fire my dog up playing tug, getting her to miss, and re-engage. Then, when I ask to heel she is 100% attention. But, we are not heeling far as we had to go from standing to pivot to small steps. So, I can't say if she will continue but I hope so! But, a tragedy happened to trainer and I haven't heard back from him on training- despite numerous attempts to reach him. however, Obviously, he is bigger things to worry about and I understand and have compassion for that. So, I just signed up for an AKC class again. I am on the verge of telling IPO to go screw. I am utterly frustrated. I was willing to put time in training. I had upped my obedience training to daily and tracking 3-4 times a week. I was trying hard!! My dog did PHENOMENAL in protection. I think that pissed off people as she did better then some of their dogs who wouldn't out or couldn't be hit with stick or whip like she could.

Yes, the dogs on both fields with me SCREAM when they are corrected with e-collar for looking away or some other thing. Why is the power so high to make them do that. It makes my skin crawl. I want to cover my ears. I can't see how that can help a dog when they are punished so severly for such small infractions. But, it is weird...there is this odd vibe on the training field where people try to have their dog be the best and toughest and most robotic or zap. I have never seen anything like it. Nobody blinks an eye. Nobody cares about the screams or harsh physical corrections. One time, one dog who was a ScH 3 wasn't tracking well and handler got on dog so bad it was crawling on its belly, whining with tail tucked and nobody cared. I had to walk away and I was told to toughen up if I wanted to do IPO.

This is not related but why is it acceptable to use the F word and cuss like crazy on the iPO field. I think that is poor manners and very disrespectful...especially with a girl present. I asked one club president and top helper to please watch his language and he told me...OBVIOUSLY I wasn't cut out for IPO.  Whatever. 

I am starting to think that he is right. I don't want to stand there while people around me talk like sailors. I don't want to make the training about some macho experience so I can puff up my chest. I don't want to make my dog SCREAM AND WHINE with the e-collar. I just want to train my dog, who I love, and see how far we could get in IPO. I just want to train and have fun. Why isn't that possible?

 

Smiley,

That story is quite disheartening! There must be others who can accompish IPO success with their dogs without such methods. I hope we hear from them.

You can... You just need to find the right club....

In my club there are people that train hard to compete at high levels and there are people that train to have fun and just try to title their dog at a club trial.

Hired dog

See my videos above, I don't train that way. I have finished top 10 at Nationals 6 times with 2 different dogs and made the FCI World championships in 2009... So no, you do not have to train that way....

Sorry, it was Beetree that said lets hear from them.... My bad

Hired Dog, maybe that's why IPO is not popular? If I do herding or obedience, or rally, or lure coursing...I can train and not have to worry about "being the best". Just because I don't care about winning doesn't mean I am some pice of crap slacker trainer. I work hard....just as hard as hard as everybody else. I am out tracking and training obedience in rain and snow and freezing temperature.  I put in THE EFFORT.  On top of paying $240 a month to train once a week with the IPO people. So, i am by no means just out there too pick my butt all day.  But, my expectations are different. I am training because I enjoy it and like the bond it builds with my dog. The IPO people I have encountered are training to win. I don't care. That's their choice like I stated. But, they should respect my decision to train for enjoyment. Doesn't mean I can't be high tracking or high protection because guess what...I just might be some day!!!! 

Beetree...you don't know the half of it. I think this IPO stuff is very cliquey (is that even a word). It's so hard to break in. But, I really enjoy the training and my dog does too. I have already mentioned her heeling but the rest of her obedience is quite good. Her recall... both trainers said was excellent. Her sit and downs in motion are fast as well. We are getting there. I am trying. But, I am finding the whole atmosphere to be discouraging.

I am going to go out on a limb and say most IPO clubs are like the ones I trained with...and.....that just sucks.

Unknown..I will check out your videos. Glad to hear about your success. I am going back to working with an AKC trainer who has trained  multiple OTCH dogs with positive methods. I am hoping to take her advice and cross back over to IPO.

I just don't want to give up now as I like the sport and my dog does too!

Frank,
Hostile looks great!

I have a question for you about your training.
In the BH video I see that it was very windy that day.
How did you get your hoody to stay in the same place throught the entire routine?

--Steve