The end of Schutzhund - Page 7

^^^^^  This post makes a lot of sense. I don't know if you're this smart in real life, but these are words to live by :)

An educated eye can tell the real fighter from the work ethic in practice. Get an education, get involved. 

 

The difference in gym fighters and competition fighters, are the gym fighters in doing their due diligence, know what to expect every day in the gym. The competition fighter, fights an unknown or known fighter that they are not FAMILAR with, and the opponent is trying to do them in, usually in ways they are not prepared for. Training and preparation are the foundation of any use for the breed, but the testing of the dog in new environments with different approaches to being oppositional, is the only way to maintain the nerve base this breed needs to function from guide dog to police dog. As you eliminate or lack these elements in your testing scheme, the character of the breed will decline. I think history has and is currently demonstrating this element.

We can wring our hands or do something about it. I can not be a police officer to proof my dog [ too old].  I chose dog sport. I can trial a dog a single time for IPO1 -2-3 and stop trialing or go to as many different trials including regionals and nationals which will test the dog off of his home field. It is the same as the gym rat boxer compared to the prize fighter to the hall of fame champion! If PSA is the field of dreams will it last? I would go to PSA or Mondio ring because I like to train my dog, interact with other trainers, and compete at the highest level my team can strive for. I am not ready to quit and if the days of stick hits are ending I am going to enjoy every last minute of it!!!

you guys are fully aware that even PD dogs are trained and certified after they pass a test given by the state (whoever certifies in the state). These hard core real life dogs are not self taught and handled. K9 handlers should, or at least here in this state train on regular bases.

I have seen many young dogs that some people "wrote off" develop in phenomenal street dogs... they just needed a little training.

Shit changes. I used to get slapped in public by my father if I mouthed him off. Now it is a child abuse... I am respectfull and just the other day I was told by a 15 year old to Fu&* o$%" I laughed as I told him one day even bigger asshole than him stabs him for his stupidity and disrispect...

Times change. We all should thirive to do our best and be realistic and honest about the dogs we feed. Most of the time I talk to someone about their dogs they have the WUSV man stoppers.. I honestly can say that my cute female will be stolen with the property if my male is not present.. he is the one who I have no doubt would F someone up.

If someone needs puppies, I am happy to get them in touch with couple shelter is my area, they can foster the whole litter is they desire!

relax guys it is not the end of the world, there will always be dogs around and there will always dogs around, the real question is....are you worthy,  if you are, then you will find them.

so cut the dramatics and make yourselves worthy.

GSDPACK
I think you touched on a big issue. Being honest about your dogs. The more I listen to people about their dogs and children, The more I am convinced they can not see the truth. I do not know if they do not want to see it or if they are just blind.

Nobody is saying not to participate in sport work, that is not the issue. The problem is that sport has become a culture until itself that isolates the dog from any other training. Many years ago there were SCH trained dogs also, but SCH was a stepping stone or foundation work for the dogs to do other things....whether those things were formal like pd/military work, or informal like taking your dog to other training venues and doing suit work, muzzle work, tracking people in woods, etc. different environments, different training modules and equipment, ... done by groups of people that were committed to keeping the breed strong and versatile. Today SCH is a culture that is pretty much played the dogs whole life; from puppy to retirement on sterile field, sterile equipment, and patterned training. Many, many of these dogs are never exposed to anything else but this limited culture and then they are bred. Most sport people won't let their dogs work suits where the dynamics are much more personal, don't have a clue about muzzle work, which really tests the dogs character, and never train anywhere but SCH fields which dogs can easily recognize and feel at home. If you think that over time breeding dogs from this culture primarily won't have an effect on character,   Well you are very naive. No you don't have to have access to police training to proof and expand the horizons of your training....you just have to understand the benefits and have the commitment with others to do it for the breeds sake. Just my humble opinion.

well they breed kelpies now just for agility competitons and german shepherds just for conformation shows and so on for a bazillion breeds and activities so why the hell not breed the best IPO dog just for IPO,  it will make IPO dogs the best they can be for IPO and if somebody wants to breed police dogs then go right ahead, somebody got a gun to y'all faces...if  they have just  type in pig latin and we will get the cops over there ASAP.

Great posts, 'Pack and Gustav.  But vk4 is correct:
Just as there is no shortage of lines bred purely for the
Shows, and no shortage of lines bred for BH/IPO (only)
plus the Shows,  so there are dogs being bred - and
proofed - to do a range of work that need not even include
IPO competition/qualifications.  There are Police forces
and others breeding to produce operational general Police
Dogs (looking for a particular range of attributes);  there are
those who breed (as Paul wants to breed) for PP dogs par
excelance ;  and those who want to produce Search dogs,
or Assistance dogs, guides for the blind, etc etc.  Our
society demands more and more 'refinement' and skills in
all of these disciplines.  Guys, THERE IS NO GOLDEN AGE;
the early, very adaptable, very versatile, can-do everything dogs
are not 'everything';  they could probably only approximate
the specialist canines we now have, and training skills have
developed over the years alongside that.  This is how breeds
should evolve.  I actually think Max would be quite pleased,
rather than spinning in his grave.  Don't forget that like other
breeds, the production of dogs including GSDs  to a Breed
Standard was a construct of it's time period.  While the Standard
today (I'm talking about the WUSV/FCI version, the 'best' one) has
been amended to reflect the developments in the breed, not to
conserve in amber the oldest, earliest possible notion of what a GSD
IS,  there is an argument for altering the breed testing [IPO] along
the way, also.  Especially if it boils down to safety of the dog.  I am
less convinced by changes demanded by the Animal RIGHTS (as
distinct from Welfare) bloc;  but IF they are prevailing in Law then we
have to accept that. - Unless we are prepared to band together as
POLITICAL CAMPAIGNERS  [? - are we ?].  As I have posted, there
is no law, either side of the Atlantic, that stops people using either
variety of sticks, in their training & clubs;  there probably will not be one,
at least for a long time.  It really does not matter if the stick does not
carry over into some PD phase trial or sport;  WE will know what our
dogs are trained with, and capable of dealing with;  the test - minus
stick hits - will still tell us other things about them.

Hundmutter, I respectfully submit that the process you outlined above is the road to from working dog to pet status. People don't breed to military/police dogs....guide dog for blind have stopped trying to breed GS, because we are so far into the pet canonization of the breed that fun activities are better suited for the breed than arduous working tasks. Sport breeding watered down like SCH is not breeding grounds for working dogs anymore. People forget why SCH was created and the reasons ALL elements were inserted. The format of SCH is not a coincidence, it is patterned after a working task. The working task itself has not declined or stopped using dogs. Yet, the SCH test has been so altered that the character and structure that it required to pass the test, which coincided with making it capable of good work in these fields( police/military/herding), also made it so versatile that it excelled in other fields of work such as guide dog and service dog. The watering down of the physical/mental rigors of the SCH test have continually led the breed down a path of character and structure ill suited for arduous work; and excellent candidates for fun and being looked at admiringly.....I submit to you that tha Cap'n has already turned over in his grave and is showing us his backside. 
This is my last post on this thread, as everyone knows my views, but Mr Engel is correct in his basic premises about this breed and why money and personal likes have triumphed over maintaining a strong working breed to be used for service to mankind( which also does not exclude the dog from being a pet, but certainly not a pet for everyone as some would endeavor.)