The end of Schutzhund - Page 8

@HM: The test wil tell 'tell us other things about them", except weak nerves which would manifest during stick hits. What happens on the training field does not have to be disclosed........
I take exception to " ...we have to accept that." That attitude is how civil liberties are taken away.
I do, however, agree with your post addressing the evolution of the breed, just that it's not for the betterment the way you described.

The SV gave up the ship, there is no longer Schutzhund or "protection dog" it's now IPO or "International examination rules" because of this:
 

History[edit]

In response to political forces in Germany, in 2004 the Verein für Deutsche Schäferhunde (SV) and the Deutscher Hundesportverein (DHV) made substantial changes to Schutzhund. The DHV adopted the Fédération Cynologique Internationale (FCI) rules that govern IPO titles, so that at least on paper the SV and DHV gave up control of the sport to the FCI. The DHV changed the name of the titles from "SchH" (Schutzhund) to "VPG" (Vielseitigkeitsprüfung für Gebrauchshunde which roughly translates Versatility examination for working dogs). The SV has retained the "SchH" title names, but otherwise conforms to the DHV/FCI rules.

[likes Gustav's post x5!!]

Please, please LISTEN to Gustav! He's an old fart like myself, who has witnessed the decline of this breed from the dog who could do just about any task, to a breed split into multiple segments that can (sometimes) do ONE task really well, and is therefore NO LONGER used as a guide dog for the blind, and in some cases, is being replaced in the police and military by other breeds better suited to the task!

One of the most sobering articles I've ever read about the breed was this one, by Koos Hassing (Tiekerhook Kennel).. If you think the watering down of schutzhund hasn't affected the breed, THINK AGAIN!

http://www.prlog.org/10507451-word-from-mr-koos-hassing-tiekerhook-german-shepherd-kennel-holland-part-one.html

Gustav, hope you haven't stopped reading on this thred, even if you have
decided not to contribute to it further.  I'll return to your last post in a while,
if I may ?

Joan - I said we 'have' to accept it UNLESS we are going to fight it.
Not 'we have to think it is reasonable, therefore choose to accept it';  
tell me,  when did you last oppose, and win, the making of a law, about
anything ?

The US and UK cultures are similar;  only a small minority of people, on
most issues, ever feel strongly enough to get out of their apathy and make
strong representations to anyone, about anything.  Even if we were to get
enough people to agree and act in defiance of laws the AR groups have
agitated for, and even with the advantages of global modern communications
technology, I don't see a mass protest to the national governments of any
other countries that have passed such laws as affect Shutzhund;  any more
than I see mass protests to the FCI, or the SV.

Sunsilver, the Koos article is interesting, but it repeats what gets said on here,
it has not resulted in any mass petitioning to the SV (or het Nederlands govt)
by the people in hundsport, to maintain judging standards on the 'grip' in the
protection phase, or anything else.  Like zdog said:  get educated, get involved.

Dog folk have been coming back from Germany every year since I can remember
(you & Cliff are not the only 'old farts' !) saying the same things Koos says about
the testing at national level.   Maybe these remarks apply equally at Club and 
Landsgruppen level;  maybe they don't.  He is one of the few people I have read or
heard say that he thought the judging on protection work was getting harder, but
the things he says about performance are the same thing I have been hearing "since
god was a boy".

HM, it was approximately eight years ago when there was a proposal to impose taxing of dog owners
by licensing of pets. We did beat it, going to county council meetings every week for six or eight weeks, usually three hours per meeting. How about you?

Gustav, please let's look at this another way:
[Oh I do love playing Devil's Advocate !]

Police Training does not rely on IPO, yes ?  It hasn't
for a very long while, certainly over here.  Does not
mean the same exercises are not taught to dogs and
handlers, does not mean the older methods are never
used in training and testing them.  You can bet your
bottom dollar that a UK Police Dog gets sufficiently
'threatened', whichever methods and tools are used,
because - as someone else pointed out recently - the
operational dogs here are more likely to get into 'fight
& bite' situations with perps, because of our less gun-
centred culture, and they have to be reliable.  [OK so
some are not 'perfect', but that is and always has been
the case everywhere.]

Considering the contact you have had with the UK, you
still think like an American on these matters -  in the UK
it is less true to say 'nobody' breeds with / on the edges
of Police breeding programmes;  actually there is a fair
amount of 'to & fro' between Police studs  (no doubt the
fees help our always impoverished Forces ?)  and with
excess-to-requirements offspring, of both sexes. It's not
huge numbers in the greater scheme of the whole Breed
in the UK, but significant nonetheless, with many 'working'
breeding kennels, in particular but definitely not exclusively,
taking part.

Guide Dogs For Blind People still have about a quarter of their
breeding stock GSDs.  Sometimes these are to be cross-bred
with Retrievers etc;  sometimes they remain purebred, because
there is still a need for dogs of the GSDs size and pace, depending
on the physique, walking speed and preferences of the Partner.
Now one could argue that the GSDs thus produced are 'pettified'
because they need to be more companion & family dog than they
do Protection Dog.  Quite what role tapping and threatening with a stick 
(padded or not) would play in determining how well the dogs can grip
rather than run away, as a part of Guide Dog training, is entirely debatable.
Other training exercises can also indicate courage and persistence on 
the part of these dogs, sufficient for their purpose.

Interesting also that as the use of pure GSDs as Guides has declined,
so another ('rival' is the wrong word) organisation has arisen to promote
and use ONLY GSDs as Guides for the blind & partially sighted.  I don't
think they have their own breeding programme  as yet, and I bet most
of the people involved are not terribly committed to Hundsport either.

Frankly what worries me FAR MORE about the future quality of the breed
isn't really what happens on the IPO fields - there still seem to be more
than enough people  in Clubs around the world who compete (even some
who are too competitive, at the expense of the dogs).  It is the overbreeding
of poor quality stock to meet the fabricated demand for pretty colours and
fluffy coats, and/or purely Pet temperaments, that is going on, in droves,
on both sides of the Pond and elsewhere in the world.  'Breeders'  whose
main purpose is profit, who do not WANT dogs with drive, who usually do not
participate in either the Show scene or the Working / Sporting scene.  There
is where the real damage is being done to the GSD Breed, IMHO.
 

Hundmutter, your last point is very interesting. What I see here in my part of Canada is there are not a lot of GSDs being bred by pet breeders. The breed is no longer popular enough here to be attractive to pet breeders, and they cost too much to feed and house for the puppy mills to want them. Most people who want a family pet buy a golden or a lab. The GSDs I see in my boarding kennel mostly come from rescues or from legitimate breeders.

The dogs the puppymills are producing by the score are the small cute, fluffy breeds. Have a look at this local breeder, which is a glorified puppy mill:http://purdypuppy.com/

He has all the trappings in place to appear legitimate, but I understand most of his breeding stock comes from puppy mills in Quebec.

From where I stand, the GSD breed here has been ruined by the show people, who have for many decades bred for fluffy coats and extreme gaits and totally ignored working ability and temperament. It's a rare show dog that will have a performance title after its name or even a Canine Good Neighbour certificate.

 

It had to be one about money, didn't it Joan ?

In England 'we' have held at bay so far moves to return
to Dog Licensing;  one reason it is so opposed is that
it is a Tax on the responsible dog owner, those who are
not will evade it.  I don't guarantee we will always manage
to win the argument, as the RSPCA , PETA and others
keep pressing for it.

State and County laws are perhaps a less good example
as protest 'locally' can often be successful;  that is also
true of Counties, and District CounCil Byelaws over here.
But since most of our legislation is on a national level, that
is harder to fight.  The GSD Community did fight the export
of dogs to Nigeria several years ago and was 'successful', but
it was a phyrric victory as we now see GSDs being used as
police, military and private security in many of the very hot
countries in Africa and elsewhere.  Even so, though they won
at the time, the protesters were comparitively few in number !

I have never known of a successful protest 'internationally' about
the Law in one country, as would be necessary in the present
case.  How about tackling a US Federal law, any dog related legislation
(or other topics) already Passed having been overturned recently ?

Sunny if that is true you Canadians are very fortunate !  You only
have to surf for a while to turn up lots of websites for the sort of
breeders I referred to, in the US and in Britain.  Some are referred
to on PDB, quite often.

I do not exempt 'Showline' people who bred / still breed purely for
conformation requirements and ignore the working side of GSDs,

whether these are the overangulated showdogs of North America 
or the Alsatians in Britain.  They too have been doing their damage
to the Breed, at least since the '40s.  Some of the Show -mad
'Germanic' enthusiasts have also been just as much at fault, but
the message has got through to many of them (here, at least) and
there has been commensurate change in priorities and facilities
over the past 2 or 3 decades.  It ain't perfect, but its still largely in
tandem with Showing rather than splitting into distinct S/L and W/L
- although I see a time when that might evolve.  Specifically 'working
& sport' kennels do exist.   (That is leaving aside those which claim
to provide dogs which can work, but really are scamming puppy-
producers !)   Yes, it is easier for puppy farmers (millers) to produce
the toy breeds and small spaniels etc, and we have our share of those,
but there are still significant numbers who keep GSDs in the same
conditions (ugh!).

Your last paragraph about laws, in this case it´s no law against stickhits in sweden, it´s the FCI workingdog comission who have taken this decision, so regardless what country the championshiop would be held the stickhits would not be there.