Boban vom grauen Monstab - Page 14

In case anyone is still wondering, found boban posted up here:

emmanuelshepherds.com/ourdogs_males_boban.htm 

since he's not listed on OFA database at all, so I don't see how he can be excellent, does ANYONE know his hip or elbow ratings?

For everyone's information, the breeding of Boban's parents was banned by the SV due to a combined ZW value of over 200.  Either parents can still breed with other dogs, just not with each other. There have been several reports of dogs from this breeding and their progeny with questionable hips. I do not have the numbers but people w/access to the SV CD can look it up.

Two of his brotherswere put down in Denmark due to aggression/temperament issues, as far as is known (meaning there could be others that people are keeping quiet about). There is another brother that was imported into the U.S. that is a nerve basket case according to my second hand information. From my first hand information, I would not breed to Boban because the dog himself has temperament issues such as displaying aggression at inappropriate moments. This is simply a case of a good looking GSD whose issues are too easily overlooked especially when people base their opinion on a nice Internet picture of a dog. You just need to go to the website of his first owner and search the forums there and anyone can come to their own conclusions. As his first owner who runs the vomdomburgerland website himself said, "The Internet is not reality". Absolutely, a stallion looking DDR type male. There are many other stallion looking DDR males out there that do not raise these questions about temperament and hips.

Actually I went looking at his original owners site, and alot of the info that used to be up there is no longer.   I saw a website earlier today for a Boban son siring a litter.  Wonder how they'll turn out.

Their combined score now is 178...

Sindy Schäferliesel ZW93
Sven Gräfental ZW85
This would give Boban vd Grauen v Monstab (Today anyway) a ZW89

The ofa rating happened at vom banachs kennel, it was probably just made up for sales purposes.

It is funny that the subject Boban is brought up again. Just yesterday, I browsed the breeder's website because I read on the German workingdog forum that he bred Boban's sister to 12 year old Lasco vom Westfalenspross last summer. I like Lasco a lot and I am contemplating breeding my female to a nice V-rated Lasco-son in Germany.

Anyway, I checked Mr. Severin's homepage and all his litters he has ever done. He bred Sindy to Sven three times: The first time (B) in April of 2003 and the last time (F) in April of 2005. While I do not know Mr. Severin at all, I find it hard to believe that the SV banned this breeding. They would have to be very busy and ban a lot more bad combinations. So, I just don't buy it. Who stated such a thing, and better, where is the "written" proof? This ban would have to be issued and published in the SID. And if I can find the time in the next couple of days, I will check the SV archives (starting from April 2005 to present) for such a ban.

Now, I don't know anything about East German lines and their temperament. The subject of Boban is scary and if true, adds more to the rumor that a lot of East German dogs have aggression problems (not my statement, but a lot of Germans have told me that, including East Germans). I love the looks of some of them, but have always stayed away, just like most of the Germans (workingline and showline breeders) do. However, I do find it sad that all these rumors are started against Boban's breeder. Has anyone ever contacted him about this? He sold Boban as a puppy, but apparantly was so convinced about that combination that he repeated it two times. I guess until all hell broke loose about Boban. If you check his home page (www.schaeferhunde-ddr.de ), you will find that he kept two females back for breeding (Blackie and Elfi) and bred another female to Evan. All his litters are listed under "Aufzucht". At the end of each line, you can click on "Bilder" for photos. All these puppies are beautiful! By the way: The kennel name is von den Grauen von Monstab, not grauen Monstab.

DDRShep, I don't know how you got the idea that this breeding was banned because it was over 200. This is simply not true. According to the latest ZW scores, Sven has 85 and Sindy has 93. Interestingly, Boban is not mentioned, although he supposedly has a-normal. Maybe, because the SV issued a ban on him since he flunked the breed survey twice. Therefore, he was taken out of the database. You do not need the SV Genetic CD to check on all dogs Mr. Severin has bred and who were also  x-rayed. You can find that information  by clicking on www.schaeferhund.de/site/index.php There are two pages of Monstab dogs. The highest score is 104 and it is a dog from the A-litter (Askau) who is out of Lump and Sindy, not Sven. If the link does not show the Monstab dogs immediately, please type in "Grauen von Monstab" (omit the von) and then mark "Zwinger" in the next drop menue, and then click "suchen".

I do like the type of dog Mr. Severin breeds and would not hesitate to buy a dog from him anytime (directly) if I wanted to add East German lines to my breeding program.  The only thing I have to mention  is that a lot of these dogs have very steep upper arms. But my favorite one would be Hexe out of Aron and Blackie.

Chris

www.schaeferhund.de/site/index.php

This should be a direct link!

I have nothing of importance to ad but I did want to comment on how I find it funny that so many times the same photos follow a dog for it's entire lifespan.  Do people never bother to take their own photos??? Those photos on the site for Boban were taken when he was w/ Jacques which was what 2 years ago now?  To me if buying a puppy, it means much more to see the current owner working and succeeding with a dog.  I want to know what the dog is currently doing-not see photos of it working several years prior...unless it is a dog that is older and retired from working of course.

Okay that's all...I know...a meaningless post! :)

That's one of my all-time favorite pics of ANY dog, I wouldn't change it if it were mine.

Here's ZW scores from that kennel in their current state.  Keep in mind that the littermates scores are not identical, because of what they themselves have produced.  Blackie has perhaps produced better than the average of her parents.

http://www.vomdomburgerland.nl/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2106&start=0

A number of the B, E, F litter von den Grauen von Monstab were sold abroad, and did not get their hip ratings in Germany. Is this why they don't show up in the SV data?

The original owner sold Boban partly because his first litter, when he was still in Holland, produced several puppies with questionable hips. He did not pass the breed survey twice if I recall correctly because he threatened to bite the judge. Funny thing is, some people think  a GSD that tries to bite a judge is impressive!  You can get aggression and stability in a GSD, so why use a GSD that has aggression but no stability? I saw Boban firsthand, to me, he was not a stable dog.

It may be possible that the breeding simply produced males with not enough nerves to handle very high levels of people aggression. All the temperament issues that I have heard of refer to males from the breeding. I have not heard of temperament issues with the females. I know of another well known West German working line breeding sired by Crok, where 3 males were put down due to severe handler aggression but the females were impressive and one female even got a 100 in schutzhund 3 obedience. Perhaps there are just some breeding combinations that overdid aggression in the males but not in the females. But it's not like the world is running out of good GSDs. There are enough breedworthy GSDs out there. So why continue to perpetuate specific genetics which have these warnings?

Anyway, the GSD has been around for 109 years now, and we're now in the 22nd or 23rd generation since Horand for many puppies being born today. Yet, temperament issues have not been eliminated from the breed. Perhaps the No. 1 reason is that people continue to breed GSDs for their good looks regardless of questionable temperament. Backyard breeders, AKC showlines, SV showlines have been accused of breeding for money and looks, but perhaps some working lines are implicated too. Some DDR lines may be because they are the  best looking of all the working lines.