Boban vom grauen Monstab - Page 3

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by BSP on 03 February 2007 - 01:02

so why is so many soft and weak females with schH title?...and why the breed goes that direction? it is good that there is dog like Boban

by hexe on 03 February 2007 - 03:02

Guess it doesn't matter that the dog in question failed his breed survey--you know, that thing which is meant to assess a dog's breedworthiness?--not once, but *twice*, because of *temperament*. So he's a 'strong and hard dog', eh? And you (the generic you, not anyone in particular) think he'd be a great choice to improve a soft or nervy female's get? More likely, though, the result if he's used over such females will be nerve-bag offspring that have dangerously high pain threshholds along with their overreactive disposition...unprovoked dog bite cases just waiting to happen. If the dog *can't* pass a breed survey, it ought not be bred, IMO...but the dog is in America, and there's nothing to stop it from happening. That is, there's nothing to stop it until/unless the dog himself actually injures someone or something in an unprovoked bite and is declared a 'dangerous dog' by the municipality in which he is kept... There IS such a thing as TOO hard. As much as strength and courage and nerve are integral to the breed, so is sound temperament and *biddibility*, the willingness to work with and for the handler.

by BSP on 03 February 2007 - 03:02

he was bred in Europe,hexe have you seen that dog?

by Gustav on 03 February 2007 - 04:02

I don't know that the dog should not be bred period but he should definitely not be bred to weak or nervy females. If anything what should be looked for are rock solid nerves in the female. Also, many handler hard dogs are not automatically hard dogs in general. This trait can occur in the adolescent stage, and then take breaking the dog to correct, and then the dog gets too old.I remember the brother of Jago,(Jalk) who could not get a sch 111 because they could not get him to out. And he was in top handler/trainer hands, yet he was bred successfully with good bitches. Or should we also say, "If a dog can't pass the courage test in the seiger show it shouldn't be bred". My point is only that the dog brings a lot to the table in other areas. He has evidently been bred on both sides of the water and I don't hear of his aggression trait being prevalent or even passed at this point.(unlike some popular dogs that were handler aggressive and have continually passed this trait enough that if you say that's dog name people THINK handler aggression.) Yet these dogs are very desirable by many breeders. He should be bred with careful knowledge and wisdom but exclude him from the genepool, I don't think so. JMO

DDR-DSH

by DDR-DSH on 03 February 2007 - 04:02

Scary, in my opinion. I also do not believe in "throwing out the baby with the bathwater", either.. But handler aggressiveness is a very serious problem if it passes on. Inevitably, some of the descendants of this dog will go to pet homes, and we can only hope for the best. My experience with handler aggressive dogs is this: Use in breeding with extreme caution! I owned a dog like this once, and I have the scars on my arm to prove it. His name was Ufo vom Fiemereck, and he was very dangerous. Actually, I got a handle on this dog and I had a lot of love and respect for him, because he had a lot of presence and dignity.. But I never trusted him again after he did a job on me. He had already put people in the hospital with serious injuries when I got him. When he attacked me, it was completely without justification for a dog.. For a dominant (alpha) male wolf it would be understandable, but not for a dog. I am all for having strong dogs, and I've owned a LOT of dogs over the years, including some real man-dogs which were suitable for the highest order of police or military work. I would have completely trusted these other dogs to stand up to a real fight from a human opponent, but they never challenged or posed a danger to me, ever. My next post I will tell more about my "gangster" dog. Dogs like this are fortuneately not common. But sadly, I have to say that he produced similarly "crazy" dogs. Some good ones came out of that line, yes, but there were too many problem dogs, overall. This was not just my experience, but that of others, also.

DDR-DSH

by DDR-DSH on 03 February 2007 - 04:02

When I bought Ufo from the Kuhn brothers (actually Adam Kuhn) he told me that there were issues with the dog but he gave me a bit of bad advice.. He told me that if I was just "nice" to the dog, that maybe things would work out. Well, after the dog had been with me alreayd ten days, I tried that, and ended up with 50 stitches in my skin and muscle of my forearm, and a broken tooth, to boot! I just went into his run to pet him and get to know him, but afterwards (when I learned more about wolf behavior), I realized that I had crossed the line on canine-etiquette several times at once that night. There are things you do not do with a truly alpha canine.. Like get down on their level (eye to eye) and touch the top of their shoulders. Nor do you enter "their" space, especially when they have a bitch in with them (not in heat). I got my ass royally kicked that night and I was lucky to get out alive or without more serious damage than I got. But please do not so quickly think that I caused the offense to bring about my own problems that night. This was something really going to the nature of the dog. I will explain more: Any bitch that I had hated to be with this male, even my super-confident old Quanto Wienerau daughter (who also hailed from a NOTORIOUS common ancestor, Sam von der Schinklergrenze, and was one of the best character bitches I ever owned). Ufo would kick anyone's ass, man or dog, day or night, rain or shine, and didn't need any reason other than he just felt like doing it, OK? So, wanting to believe in this dog, and having jumped hurdles to get him, and just being in love with the way he looked, I tried to rationalize and make excuses for him.. He must have gotten a rough break somewhere along the line, I thought. But that doesn't explain what was wrong with his puppies. And his puppies were nuts, too!!!! Let me tell you in the next post about some of those puppies...

DDR-DSH

by DDR-DSH on 03 February 2007 - 05:02

Oh, excuse me.. My mistake! My super-confident old bitch "Alfa" was a Quanto GRAND daughter, not a daughter! OK.. Now that this straight.. I did mention that she was from a common ancestor, the very notorious alleged gangster dog, Sam von der Schinklergrenze (through Zanto aus Kattenstroth, who was a ringer for Alfa!). I don't know if this is where the problems came from, but Martin Steffen of Fiemereck kennels built a mini-dynasty and I think a small fortune on the foundation of Kinna vom Fiemereck, who was my crazy Ufo's dam. Lots of those Kinna offspring went to Japan, back in the day. The Fiemereck dogs back then were GORGEOUS!!! But then why did Martin Steffen abandon that line and rebuild from another line? Could it be that there were "issues"? I have reason to believe so. I had to fight like hell just to get Ufo fertile and breeding. He was completely sterile and had chronic prostatitis when I got him. I figured it out and worked with a good old vet to get him back on track. That vet was a GSD man, too and he knew of Ufo's reputation.. Told me I was "wasting my time" but I did not listen. My first litter from Ufo produced a gorgeous male who we called "Baby Ufo" (Ufo himself was now called "Ufy-Poo" in a bit of dark humor). Baby Ufo was "too-die-for" beautiful, but would go berserk at the sound of a blow-dryer. Weed-whackers and the sound of a metal leaf rake on pavement would send him into a tooth-busting, coyote-syndrome attack-frenzy! He was never a sociable or cuddly dog, but God knows I dragged him everywhere with me as a puppy. HE WAS SOCIALIZED!! So, what went wrong? Genetics! And this was soon to be confirmed by yet other offspring of Ufo! More to follow...

DDR-DSH

by DDR-DSH on 03 February 2007 - 05:02

I also bred Ufo to a few other bitches, and so did my friends. All different bitches, but we kept getting the same results. Wierd, crazy dogs! Unfortuneately, I did not get the connection completely until a few litters were on the ground and they had had some time to reach adulthood. Fortuneately, there were not many litters, and they are all long-gone, now. A friend of mine bred to Ufo with a Roccer Busecker Schloß / Jupp Haller Farm granddaughter. She was a very nice, stable bitch and an excellent worker. My friend kept her pick male pup and when that dog was fully mature, it cornered her in the kitchen by the refrigerator and would not let her out for three hours.. DOMINANT behavior and incorrect subordination for our breed. Another brother of that dog had a loose screw, for sure...She trained him up, and he bit like a wild animal, with that now-familiar coyote-like frenzy! I also kept a female from another bitch, and she came extremely close to biting a man in the face..no provocation or warning! I gave her to a friend of mine who lived in a rural area, and she got out and chased a car. She actually bit or grabbed onto the tire while the vehicle was moving and ended up quickly with a broken neck. OK.. One more.. I gave a shy bitch to a guy at work, and after a few weeks he asked me to come and look at what she was doing. He told me she was "stalking" his daughter. I went and watched, and sure enough, she would stalk that little girl like a prowling wolf. I have never seen this before, but there were similar stories I had heard of other dogs in this line, "stalking" and sneak-biting people. I took that bitch and had her put to sleep. She was also a very unfriendly and unsociable creature.. By now, a familiar pattern. None of these were really people-happy dogs. Now, the conclusion, and some of my theories on what this was all about.

by Preston on 03 February 2007 - 05:02

DDR-DSH, excellent posts. These posts of yours are very important and the most important I have ever read on this web site. I was aware of the rumors about the dog Adam Kuhn sold (turns out you were the buyer). I am kind of surprised the rumors I heard turned out to be true, because they seemed a bit much at the time. You have made a vitally important point for GSD breeders to take most seriously. Perhaps you heard of another top W. German dog that was sold to someone in the USA in the last ten years that fit this description. The story has some similarities. If you e-mail me I'll share it with you if you don't already know. As an aside, I liked the black sable select dog Adam leased from Germany whom I saw when I visited his kennel. You have made the important point to not breed your bitch to a known gangster stud dog even if one's bitch has perfect temperament and a history of producing it. It is vitally important to know a dog's past history and any history of his parentage to prevent these problems.

DDR-DSH

by DDR-DSH on 03 February 2007 - 05:02

Walter Martin said that once in awhile, we should breed to this sort of a criminal type of dog, to keep the temperament strong. Maybe.. But with caution. Which means that you'd better be good at evaluating pups and ethical and sensible about who you sell them to. Certainly there is a place for hard dogs in the world, and people qualified to handle them. It can also be argued that a handler-hard dog is the hardest of the hard dogs, and will back down from no one. Well, that may be somewhat true, too. But anything that has a survival instinct can be respectful or even fearful of the right person. Ufo did have a TON of fighting drive, no doubt, and he relished a good fight with a man. After I had put his lights out a couple of times and gavin him occasional reminders of my absolute authority, my Ufo acted like a kitten with me. For the first time, he actually became even cuddly and affectionate.. After I had essentially come within a hair's breadth of killing him by choking the breath out of him, several times!* I could handle him with the greatest ease, and a very light touch and seldom even a correction.. But only because I had previously really bested him so completely! If it EVER came to a point where he saw that I was helpless and unable to control him, I don't think that there would have been any loyalty or fidelity there, at all. I could easily be in danger again with him. And this is very characteristic of these dogs. They often show no indication of their treachery, early on, but wait for their opportunity to jump you when you least expect it. From an would-be dominant (alpha) wolf's point of view, this is not "treachery", nor is it "crazy".. It's just clever to wait until the best opportunity to make a full-on challenge to authority. *Let me point out that I do NOT approve of choking dogs as a method of training. I have seen trainers that do this habitually and trivially, and I abhor it. But in Ufo's case, nobody had been able to even so much as handle this dog for several years. I have a WORN-OUT brass fur-saver still somewhere to attest to the fact that no one had even been able to remove it from him in a very long time! Ufo HAD to be choked out and shown that he was POWERLESS!!! Beating and fighting will never correct a dog like this and is abusive. Why? Because they are so pumped up on adrenalyne and endorphins that they do not even feel it, and if anything it eggs them on in the fight drive. In my experience, ONE MUST make the dog believe that they have the power to render them completely helpless, and the only way to do that is to choke them out until all they know is blackness. You only want to achieve unconsciousness and then you MUST give them back air again, or you really risk killing them. It may take a time or two, but by God that dog will get religion in this way. I don't know of any other way, and I don't know if it would be a permanent rehab, but I have heard of permanent cures.





 


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