Boban vom grauen Monstab - Page 4

Thanks, Preston! Yes, I was the one. My name is Janice Bartmess. Ufo was one of those life-altering events for me. I actually flew to the panhandle of Louisiana near Shreveport to pick him up. He had been exiled to the "kennel" of a small-time guard dog trainer who had little more than some chain-link runs out in the middle of a loblolly-pine forest at the end of a dirt road and a sack of dog food resting against the base of a tree. The guy out there was scared to deah of Ufo, and did not dare to go in with him. We lured him into the airline crate and slammed the door on him. Flew home and my husband picked us up at the airport. We lifted the crate into the vehicle and looked at each other in shock! The dog weighed maybe fifty pounds at best. He was emaciated! Well, in a very strange way, the whole bad experience was a blessing. I thought I knew about dogs before Ufo. I knew nothing! Ufo taught me about a whole dimension of dogs that most people never get to know. He added to my knowledge immeasurably.. Not only about dogs, but about myself. I actually went through a whole set of experiences from getting attacked like that, that I could have NO WAY experienced without maybe getting caught in the middle of a battle zone in Vietnam. Let me tell you something.. Post traumatic stress disorder is REAL!! I went through phases where I would wake up in the middle of a deep sleep, and I was ready to fight the first thing that came along. I WANTED to go out there and fight that dog, one on one, bare-handed. I had dreams of tigers, and in waking hours, I was surrounded by a sort of "bubble", and if anything came within that space, I instantly became agitated. I actually had one very regrettable experience in a supermarket in which I grabbed a man by the throat and threw him down on the floor... And I was an average-sized woman with NO history of violence! For awhile, I went through a "loathing and disgust" phase regarding dogs. Then fear.. And I wanted to get rid of ALL my dogs! But the logical part of me could not make sense of this.. I loved my dogs! How could I now hate and fear them? So, I decided to confront all these feelings and to confront Ufo the right way. We worked through it together. THIS is the real reason I cried like a baby when that dog died. I don't want to be overly romantic about it, OK? But it was one of those "Don Juan" kind of journeys of the soul or something. And do you know what? Afterwards, I absolutely LOVED to work dogs! REAL dogs!

No, BSP, I haven't seen the dog. And that matters because.....? The dog failed two breed surveys on temperament. That's all I need to know to determine that I wouldn't take a puppy sired by him if it were given to me with a huge check attached to it's collar. Sure, maybe the pup would be fine...or maybe it would take after it's dad. I like my skin staying intact far too much to take such a risk. Gustav wrote: "My point is only that the dog brings a lot to the table in other areas. He has evidently been bred on both sides of the water and I don't hear of his aggression trait being prevalent or even passed at this point" That the dog is but coming four years of age and already sold to the States says volumes about what he's produced back in Europe. That he has already been sold *again* here in the US is telling as well. It would seem that the dog's offspring here in the States are just now reaching a year of age, and his get back in Europe can't be much older, given the dog's own young age. Time will tell whether they take after the sire, or if the dams buffered the temperament issue. No one dog is the savior of the GSD, and eliminating dogs which can't pass their breed survey--or yes, can't pass their courage test at a conformation show--will be nothing but beneficial to the breed overall. Contrary to what some seem to think, SchH wasn't designed as a competitive sport, and the breed survey and conformation show wasn't meant to be merely a beauty contest; the entire package was meant to ensure that only the best specimens were used to perpetuate the breed.

Here's the deal.. A very knowledgeable friend of mine back then bred to Ufo, and he saw something in the dog, too. He said it was something about the eyes. Bingo! Again.. I don't want to sound overly romantic about it, but when that dog looked me in the eye, it was like looking into the eyes of a very dignified and proud man. Dogs do have souls.. I believe that. But all the romantic notions and wishes one might have, no matter how personal and precious, will probably not mean anything to someone else whose ability to compromise THEIR expections of a dog or dogs in general and to work through it all) will not be so great. I can take dogs largely for what they are. I can live with them or work with them from that starting point. Most people cannot. That's why a lot of dogs end up at the pound. And when a dog really harms a kid, for reasons that are impossible for the general public to understand or accept, that's not cool for our dogs' PR or future. The kid usually gets over a bite, but the public remembers and forms a bias that can last a lifetime. All of these kinds of stories end up in the newswire services.. The public is already overly sensitized to dog bites and attacks. We don't need that kind of trouble.

I got off-track and forgot to mention what my other Ufo-appreciative friend said. He was SO on-target! He said that Ufo was a "feral" dog.. Wow! Feral, meaning a domestic animal which has reverted to the wild. Well, that's another really interesting subject, because in the selective-breeding process which goes with the ongoing multi-multi generational domestication of species, the "wild" behaviors are generally muted or attenuated.. So that we lose the magnitude or amplification of the inherited behaviors that allow survival of wild species. AS most of us know, in dogs there are complex and variable social drives, feeding drives, prey drives, mating drives, hunting drives.. etc and so on. Literally every single behavior that a wild canine (or any other species) has for it's own survival are inherited, but can be exploited by man for specialized purposes by means of adaptive training. The thing is that we do not need the high degree of amplification of these instincts in domestic dogs. Most importantly, dogs are expected to be subordinate to a human handler and to get along with the entire family and even visitors, while the "pack" alpha members are present. So, the social drives of dogs have been downwardly attenuated or modified over the years via selective breeding to assure compatibility with a human pack. Virtually all dogs are somewhat dominant or subordinate in their social behavior tendencies, relatively speaking. And of course, every macho dog handler thinks that his dog is "alpha". Trust me.. that may be true that John Doe's dog is relatively alpha, but very few of us have ever had to deal with a dog that has extreme, problematical alpha behavior on this level. Fortuneately, this kind of a dog is relatively rare.. But, on the other hand, it does tend to go in family lines where OTHER "feral" behaviors are also noticed. Think: "Coyote Syndrome". In my Ufo progeny, I saw MORE EXTREME social behaviors which were deviant from what a typical homo sapiens would find useful. I found MORE EXTREME defense mechanisms, too. Also more extreme noise-sensitivity (blow-dryers, weed-whackers and spring-steel rakes). All evidence to me of the "feral theory" of inherited behavior. I think that it IS possible for a dog or bloodline to revert to a more feral form. (continued..)

So, if you can follow my line of thinking, if we are breeding for working dogs, and we WANT more pronounced inherited behaviors (originally survival behaviors or instincts upon which we base our novel training and uses for the dog), then it is true that we want to be a bit bolder in the type of a dog that we will breed to. Occasionally we will step over the line that divides pets from the "wild side". We are NOT breeding Golden Retrievers, as someone else pointed out. But we walk a very thin line, and it's a matter of keeping a delicate balance. We want as much dog as we can use, and not more than we can handle. As another good friend of mine said just today in a conversation, it is "a work in progress". I could not have said it better! I am not saying that this dog is no good to breed to. I am saying that if the allegations are true, his progeny will have to be carefully evaluated..That would be my opinion. If I bred to a dog like this one, I would be looking two and three generations down the line. Ultimeately, we get what we breed for, and we achieve nothing by fooling ourselves. We do not live in a vacuum, but in a society of other people (sometimes with dog-hostile agendas) who do not accept dogs so readily, and we live under a rule of law. I personally LOVE DDR dogs with a passion!!! But some of them are a bit more.. well.. um... feral. In moderation, that can be a very, very good thing, and they can give a lot of "Oomph" to a good working dog breeding program. But you have to watch things like nerves in some of the lines and individuals. It is also much more likely in the feral social nehavior range to see excessive subordination which would render a dog not the least dangerous, but nevertheless generally useless and frustrating in the training and results. There will always be variations which fall within the normal, acceptable range, but extremes should generally be avoided. Anyone who has taken "Breeding 101" knows that we cannot compensate for one extreme by breeding to the opposite extreme. Always, dogs within a normal range should be selected for breeding. I know which bloodlines of the DDR tended to produce the bad nerves, and I avoided them, with very rare exceptions. Some lines give a LOT of stability and good nerves, and others were incredibly loyal, intelligent and affectionate to the owners. Like always, "A good dog is where you find it", and there are no hard and fast rules, but with experience, you get to know your bloodlines well enough that you can look in the right places. Some dogs, like my old Candy von der Knappenmühle and his father Grand vom Ritterberg, were recommended for improving temperament. There, he certainly did not disappoint! I think that about wraps it up for me.. Hope someone got something out of it and would be interested in any other observations or opinions from you all.

DDR-DSH; Great post and right to the point! In my experience, sometimes behavioral traits can skip generations. Boban's offspring may not display them at this point, but his grand pups may. Never mind, that the Sindy/Sven (Boban's parents) breeding's were banned by the SV. Although Sindy and Sven had a1 hips, too many of their pups turned out dysplastic!

DDR-Dish, First I would like to say that though i don't know you personally, I have a ton of repect for your knowledge of the DDR dogs . Your reputation precedes you positively. Second, I think we are saying the same thing. I qualifyed that the dog should be bred with wisdom and knowledge. Sure their are dogs that have faults to an extreme that I would never touch.(grade 2 or higher hips,extreme shyness that is generational and nonfunctional,etc.) But I also look at the total picture. I don't know if this dogs problem is more genetic or environmental(and I bet some people passing judgement don't either),I would like to see how the dog passed his schutzhund trials,this tells me something also, not everything(but neither does breed survey)but something. Take for example, the dog absolutely will not out, or let somebody examine his testicles, or look into his ears,etc, would this dog pass his breed survey or be dismissed that day? Has the german shepherd community bred dogs with these traits with great success over the years? Hell, 30 years ago many many dogs wouldn't out from the long bite and they received 5 to 7 point reduction and 9 or 10 in courage. Did the breed go to hell in a handbasket because of this(because today these dogs would not pass the breed survey). The out rule was changed for polictical perception, not to eliminate from breeding dogs that won't out! The lines that work best today have foundation in many dogs that had these traits and we have changed the rules for creating softer dogs and then wonder why the police departments look for mals as much as shepherds these days. Again, my point is you have to have a knowledge of the fault and reason of the fault to make an intelligent decision about its impact on breeding. Do you know how many excuses I hear from people that have dogs that won't engage the helper under pressure as to why it occurred? Stepped on my toes, helper stared at him mean,field had rocks on it, he never did this before, presentation was wrong,blah blah blah etc.All the time the dog has its tail under its stomach and eyes so worried you feel sorry for the dog.But in the name of gait,color , and beauty we will breed and TITLE this dog. So, I'm just saying I need more than breed surveys for me to make an opinion. When surveys honestly reflect dogs in temperament, then I will let that tool exclusively make decisions for me.JMO

fleur so why his ZW is 77?,

Well, the E-litter had at least two with HD in it (Endor/Eyke).There may be more that have not been x-rayed or I don't know of . The only litter he sired (6 pups)in Europe (Netherlands)two of them have mild/moderate HD (Malaysia)and one female( Bora) the breeder (vom Domburger land)kept back had questionable hips. He sold her to a pet home! Vom Banach k9 only had Boban for a little over a year and this kennel is known to sell most of their dogs to pet homes. Most of them will never be x-rayed. There is a good reason why they sold him. I am sure D.H. will jump in here and let us know about the ZW!

They also have problems with ED and long coats