When did either starving, beating or choking... - Page 12

Just what are you implying there Blitzen?

Huh? That was a quote from Stehpanitz. I'm not implying anything. http://maxvstephanitz.com/index.html

DIfference between hard correction and abuse. It many cases it's best to give one good hard correction and problem over vs taking a soft approach and enabling the problem. Now if your frustrated at your lack of ability to train and become cruel with your dog thats abuse

Do right, Good topic. If it doesn't get a good response on this thread start another. It would be interesting to hear thoughts on this. My self, I don't want a Pit in Shepherds clothing. Consentrate too much on breeding that type of courage ( or lack of good sense ) you will lose the overall value of the whole dog I am afraid. I don't expect from them what I am not willing to do. But then again, I would go a few rounds for them.

You and I obviously don't see things the same Blitzen. For one when I talk about how hard/soft a dogs pain tolerence is I am talking about his Character not his Temperament. A bit of miscomunica... I agree with Stephanitz in regards to the type of dogs he approved of. Woooaa, I almost went down the whole S vs W issue. I think there is a place in the world for very strong GSD's. I do not claim to be a breeder for the masses and never want to. I work hard at breeding strong dogs that work on the street, S&R and title in the many different sports. Lets put it this way. Even in the strongest of litters I have had over the years I still have puppies that are perfect for the home/companion market. And I can also say I have never had a dog returned to me because the family could not handle it.. Ever!!! So how can that be Blitzen?? Shouldn't they be too much dog for the pet market? I bred two very strong dogs together so what gives? Not going any further Blitzen... Best Regards, Dennis Johnson www.johnsonhaus.com

The reality of today is that there is a wide variety of shepherd temperament. I personally like the Czech/DDR dogs because I see high level of trainability in the hands of most people. I personally donot like shepherds that have weak nerves,no courage,and that worried look in their eyes. BUT, I also don't like shepherds that have more drive than brains. See, for me the beauty of the dog is the UTILITY of the breed. The shepherd shouldn't have collie temperament and the shepherd shouldn't have malinois temperament. Before both sides get themselves in a knicker, I'm not criticising the super hard dog or the super soft dog. I just like the dog that you can put in either skilled hands or family hands and it will be a success. The harder ones like this can be police/military dogs, the softer ones can be seeing eye dogs. But if your breeding dogs that don't fall in those threshholds something is wrong. One other thing, it was asked what is the threshhold for hardness(we all KNOW what it is for softness though some make excuses to allow it), to me the threshhold is if a dog HAS to have electric to get it do something, I think you have pitbull temperament. Now I said electric to do something not electric to polish or refine for top competition. Because we had hard dogs thirty five years ago when there was no electric and we still trained these dogs productively. So if you HAVE to use electric to get the dog to do something, THATS not true shepherd temperament.JMO

Dennis, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to suggest your breeding program isn't a good one. I'm happy for your success placing you dogs, that's not a simple thing to do. I never did well with that when I was breeding. I got back about 25% of the dogs I bred, never could figure out what I was doing wrong so decided to just not do it anymore LOL.

That's not how I took it Blitzen. I never thought you were implying anything neg. Just two different opinions and we are both trying to explain them... I was just trying to use an example. This way no one can make stupid claim of working dogs do not make good house dogs etc etc.. Best Regards, Dennis Johnson www.johnsonhaus.com

By the way, for a reference on hanging dogs and the crack on the snout as a correction, ready William (Bill) Koehler ("Keeler") books on obedience, especially the one about guard dog training. It has the obedience content in it, as well as the guard dog module. A lot of people didn't "approve" of his techniques, but they worked. His argument was that a lot of "gangster" dogs could be saved, and that this was the only way to do it. As time goes on, I believe in this man, and increasingly so. He was the trainer from the Walt Disney Studios, back in the day when they made a LOT of dog and animal movies, like "Old Yeller", "Big Red" and "The Incredible Journey" (I hope I got all these titles right). As he pointed out, movie production was incredibly costly in terms of time, and they lost a lot of money if the dog screwed up and they had to re-shoot. Bill Koehler books were amoung the first to go into my library, and I trained my first Ob dog under one of his protege's, Howard Cross. He was GOOD!!! Bill Koehler mentioned in his books the humaniacs and cookie-trainers, whose ideas and tactics he loathed. You can teach behaviors with cookies, but you cannot make absolutely reliable dogs with treats. You need to make the dog responsible for his actions, in the nearest way a dog can understand. Dogs cannot really understand our world, nor can they make ethical decisions, but they can be made highly reliable and well-mannered... if that is what you want, you can get it. It will hurt the humaniacs feelings more than anyone else, but so be it. You can't please everyone, so you might as well please yourself. Most people can see the truth.. Only the crazies don't want to accept it. So, let them bitch! That's what they really want to do, anyway! I don't listen to them. They can screw off! If I could get a handle on my Oofy-Poo using Bill Koehler's training techniques, and nobody else apparently could do it before me (He had been a rogue for many years and hurt many people), then Koehler's methods work! The proof is in the pudding, right? In twenty five years of working with own dogs and training a few problem dogs for people, I only had to choke a dog maybe four times, max. In all cases, it caused a major attitude improvement, right away. Some dogs want to fight you and when they go rogue, it's this or let them go and end up with big medical bills and lawsuits, or put them down. By far the least damage and pain for everyone is to choke the dog and put his lights out momentarily. That really gives them the good-old religion and the fear of God!

excellent point, while only .001% of dogs require this. but you can't argue w. success. its natural for an animal to be hit, bit, cut etc.... but it will never loose its air until it passes out. its not for the majority of dogs, but I've seen the instant respect. after the dog got up, wrapped his mind around what just happened, he was as submissive as weak little show dog. there was no more challenging over a sleeve, food,ball, etc... this measure is not for 99.99% of dogs but I've seen w. my own two eyes the benefits. what's funny is that everyone beloved dog whisperer will choke a dog out ever now and then. they only show him picking the dog up, cut away, and come back when its over. thr dog is on the kitchen floor,gasping for air, and once he can get a good bit of air to its brain, there is no more fight, no more dominance, just a dog that realizes he can't fight what just happened and is glad to be alive. let the humaniac discussion begin...