When did either starving, beating or choking... - Page 3

There is a big difference between "correcting" a dog just like there is a difference between starving a dog and not feeding a dog the night before...Come on here lets not get all caught up in semantics and bs, you know what I'm talking about...Right is right and wrong is always wrong...Crating a dog is a much better way of dealing with a "bad dog"not forever but for an hour or so, they usually get the message... E collars are a means of getting ones attention but lets put one on you and see how fast you respond, thats just not natural...Did you ever wonder how they get the Lipponzoner (I'm sure its misspelled) horses to do the drasage they do...???An electrical prod up the butts, thats just great, I'm sure if you put one up your butt you too will walk funny and on command at that... Old school, new school abuse is never the right way and I will not sit in judgement of anyone, we all do what we do but then don't be surprised when that 85 lbs GSD bites your ass off one of these days...Again I question who some of us are who have dogs that are just plain anti-social or "hard"...I'm no betterthan anyone but I will never abuse my dogs, never... I can't believe that I'm getting an argument here over abusing our beloved GSDs...It makes me wonder... Excerice, discipline, respect, consistency, affection...I know its easier said than done but I'll bet most of us who have GSDs treat them better than some people are treated, I know our dogs are...When I pass onto the next life I want to come back as one of my dogs, what a great life they lead... Not gonna budge from how I feel... Rob

Blitzen and Molly, well stated and eloquent as always. There are motivational methods that can achive high scoring results.

Ditto, Roborob. Well said.

Saxtonhill are you saying that you can achieve high scores w/ out using excesive corrections, or w/o using any corrections? IMO this whole topic is subjective, i know folks that will put a dogs food on the track, and if it goes a day w/o eating... oh well. to some folks may consider that as starving a dog. I know of other folks that will use the e-collar on the track and everytime the dog is off the track it is corrected. some folks will think that is too much. what most people dont consider is the individual dog and what has lead up the current state of training. perhaps the dog was not taught correctly in the beginning, or maybe the dog knows the command and decides not to do it. who knows... but to say any type of correction or withholding food is a bit short sited.

roborob, I totally agree with you. Look at how many dog's right now were trained that way(Maybe a Sample, Boban Thread)and are not trusted with your adverage person, and what happens to the person and dog when you sell that dog to an adverage person. IMO it's kinda like the Pit bull's that go after their owner, why do they do this? most likely the owner of that Pit Bull abused him like this topic, and in reality they are actually good pets to have. I know because I have one.

IT is all about CONSEQUENCES.In the teaching phase the reward must be continous. As the dog shows us he gets it, this is weened back and mild compulsion is used. We could talk forever on here about the word compulsion and never find common ground. The use of compulsion after teaching should bring clarity and speed to the exercise which we would like to call expression. I consider it a diservice to our dogs if we do not bring them to this point. My personal pet peeve is handlers who do not bring consistancy to the field for their dog. These people should get a taste of the E-coller to bring their consistency and expression to the level that they wish their dogs had. My .02 ---Bob

Nobody ever said not to correct or that witholding food was bad, there are huge differences between starvation and witholding food just like there is a difference between a correction and choking a dog out...I have to wonder how things got the point where you need to abuse a dog to get it to do what you want, where were you throughout its trainning when it was younger...???Exteme anything makes me worry about people like you who have large breed dogs, remeber it takes just 1 bad GSD or Rottie to make people fear them all...You do the breed no good with those outdated methods you use to make your dog "track" or whatever it is you feel the dog should do...Its people like you who should never have a dog let alone a noble GSD... I've said my piece and while you are entitled to your opinion just remember opinions are like a**holes, we all have one...But an opinion based on anything other than intellect is not an opinion, it is a thought best kept to oneself... I am no smarter than you, no better than you but I do have whats called good common sense and that sense tells me that abuse is never the right way to go...I'll bet with abuse and or an E collar I can get you to jump through hoops too... Think about it and then think again... Rob

You guys can talk all the goodie goodie you want until you have a dog that requires this hardeness, because they are that hard. Lets just all go back to fairy tail land now!

Maybe the difference in training methods is the result of how we view our dogs in the first place. Dogs that are considered pets and family members are most likely not going to be subjected to having their food withheld for days at a time, hung until they pass out, trained with nail boards, have their testicles shocked with e-collars or being wetted down before an e-collar is applied. I think I speak for Blitz and maybe a few other GSD's when I say I'm pretty sure he'd rather be a pet. Where do we draw the line in a civilized society? What is cruel and inhumane treatment? Have we lost all our humanity when we think we are justified to do what we need to do to get a dog to track, take the sleeve, whatever because we are higher on the scale of evolution? Are we really entitled to use a dog as a tool to attain a degree or position that we want as humans when it doesn't benefit the animal in any way? Just asking, don't shoot me.

Good post Blitz. There is a huge difference between not giving a dog his dinner so that he is avid for tracking or other motivational training the next morning and starving a dog. Same goes for other methods. IMO if a dog does not readily do the bite work, track, or other tasks, perhaps you should look at getting a different dog with the right drives for the work instead of trying to force a round peg into a square hole. Sure, all dogs need to be trained for the work, but if you have to go to such extremes then the dog probably just doesn't "have it," and will never be really great at the job no matter what you do.