Dog Training - Crowd Control - Page 2

zdog, the prey dog will bite for prey and will bite anything he is tought to see as prey, unfortunately you cannot teach them any possible situation so you will be screwed one day or the other,

BZCZ is very right when he mentions guarding after the out

A dog on a real job should out on command and guard the subject, nothing more, nothing less

we have to be realistic and recognize that the ideal sportdog is not the ideal dog for streetwork,

and again I say, if you can't teach an out guard while using a tug to teach the out, you need a new line of work.  I've heard all the excuses and somehow we train past it all the time.

Tell me, how do you train the out so it's perfect and doesn't have any pitfalls of using a tug?  

and I don't care about "sport dogs" and "real dogs".  It wasn't my point that they're the same my point was even those crap sport dogs can be trained with a tug and still focus on the man.  Sure a dog with some balance can as well.

Actually, mostly everyone is wrong and so is most of the training. First, crowd control, whatever you want to call it, has an objective, ie, get to a down officer that has been hurt, move people a certain way, out of the way etc. In order for that to happen, you CANNOT have a dog that will bite and hold while 300 other people run and do as they want. The best way to work a dog in that situation is to have the dog on its back legs barking and snapping and moving THROUGH the crowd, never actually focusing on anyone or if it happens that it nails someone, it lets go without being outed and starts the same herding behavior again.

Sports people who have never trained or handled a dog in the real world dont understand this, but, it comes down to proper selection of dogs like Duke said and the BEST dogs I have seen do this work are NOT GSDs but Filas in Brazil many years a go. 99% of patrol dogs will have a problem with this sort of work because of how they were trained to bite and hold and I am not even going to touch on the "training" methods used in the video with people on both sides of the dog and handler being so close to them...thats how accidents and lawsuits happen.

UK ? is not the policy in the UK for the bobby to say '' stop! or I shall say stop again!'' ? '

and I had a whole section written on that in my first post and deleted it.  Didn't want to talk about too many variables at once :)

Zdog, you are funny and correct, that is the policy in the UK, well, most of it anyway. When you get up to Ireland and other places, things change somewhat, but, you have a much better chance of getting bitten there then here, there being Europe, not just the UK and a much lesser chance of being shot as opposed to here where police shootings are more prevelant.

Maybe if they used only IPO dogs....................?

Zdog,

What do you use the tug for in the training of the out?

Farm dog crowd control training.

What do you think I use it for?  It's a reward.  Not nearly as good as the guy he was just feasting on, but something to ease the transition and make things clear.  I use it in 2 toy, for call backs and call offs.  Out guards aren't an issue, because by the time he's outing on a helper, it's not  an issue.  Out guard might get a bite from the helper, might be me walking up with a tug, might be me walking up and helper stepping back and coming back with bite, might be all sorts of things. 

 Getting a reward from me in training for outing isn't an issue later on because we train thru it.  Just like those that flank their dogs off bites have a lot to train thru, or those that bang their dogs off a bite with prong collar and then reward, or those that never out and just come up and choke their dogs off every bite.  Ever scenario I've ever seen used to "teach" an out has the potential for bad habits to be created.  I find the ones "created" by using a tug easy to get past considering all the other issues i've seen and had to fix over the years.