Dog Training - Crowd Control - Page 3

I can't wait to hear what you are doing wrong, Joan. 

Love that dog, intelligent with very good conformation. My kind of GSD.

5, 6 different expert trainers, 5, 6 different methods?

if you have a well balanced dog prey/defence, you need no banging or Ecollars for the out, and everyone can teach a sportdog to look at the helper and wait till the ball or cooky drops but that wont get you anywhere in the street  that is the problem

this is my 11 month male, clean out and focus on the helper without any pressure, tugs,cookies or clickers, well balanced dog and easy on/off switch, this type of dog will cover you behind at night

so why use a secondary reward? That you have to teach through?

This video was classic example.  The dog outed, and spun away from the decoy, to get his reward for outing.  This is what you have to train through, you have to force the dog to stay with the decoy to stop that behavior.  You are forcing the dog to do something.

Training the out, does not need to be a power struggle.  You missed the part in my post where the dog has to learn to fight thru barking and body as well.  When that is taught you then out the dog and he switches his aggression and drive into the bark which becomes a demand/dare for the helper to move so that he can grip again. 

There is no forcing the dog to do anything.  There certainly isn't the two pressure fronts on the dog's brain.  Pressure from the helper to stay there and pressure from behind where the toy is and where the dog wants to go to get his reward. 

As the video clearly shows, a dog trained this way for the outs, wants to spin and get his reward which is away from the focus of the man.  You have to apply pressure to fix this.

There are easier ways to teach this that don't pressure a dog and allows him to stay in fight drive.  The switch from fight with the helper to prey with the handler confuses the dogs and inhibits them.  Don't believe it?  Look at the beginning of the video where the sable is backed up to being almost behind the handler.  His internal conflict from those two pressure fronts has made him hesitant. 

i've seen plenty of struggles with dogs from both ends of the leash, I think part of the spinning off the bite was because it was put right there in the dogs peripheral vision.

Anyway, there are plenty of ways to train an out, you're right.  You're also fully kidding yourself if you don't think they all have things to work thru.   It's called training.

Tell me how you put a dog in fight and then he just "lets go" with no pressure from either side and then tell me how that has no potential for unintended fall out.  Any dog worth a shit is not going to want to let go during a "fight" unless a lot of work was done before hand which all involve secondary rewards, decreasing pressure or increasing from either front or back or some variation of the 2.  

I have yet to meet anyone that just puts a dog on a helper and can tel them to out and they do without doing some sort of training.  Tell me this easy way of doing this without using any pressure or any rewards.

Teaching dogs to move helpers thru aggression and barking isn't a new concept, nor is it foreign, but it's not really something a dog would chose to do when told to while biting, unless he has been shown he has to previous.  

And Duke, nice dog, he just knew how to out right?didn't even have to teach him?  just knew from the get go that out meant let go :)  Don't think I didn't notice the helper immediately grab the short leash on the prong when getting ready for the out, but you expect me to believe it was taught with no pressure :)  But, very nice dog for sure and good helper.  But sometimes I think people forget what they're actually doing when they train.

And nowhere did I say everyone must use a tug.  There are a thousand ways to rome, i've seen most of them.  I've certainly seen plenty of dogs trained with all sorts of methods that didn't have any big issues, using tugs included, and i've seen all sorts with problems on both ends from all those methods too.  

I did tell you.  By the time we ask for an out from my dog on a helper, he just does it.  He knows what an out means from OB.  He knows how to bark and be aggressive through the barking,  He knows when he outs a sleeve to go back after the helper.  The out off the sleeve on a helper is a natural extension of all he knows and yes they do just come off and go back to barking.  They've been doing it for awhile when they out off the sleeve when it is slipped.  How do I accomplish that without conflict?  After they have carried the sleeve I teach them to down and hold it calm and full on the down.  They soon learn that is boring and the real fun is outing it so they can go back to work.  Again, they decide, I don't force it onto them.  We keep the pressure points to a minimum and allow the dog to be proactive and not reactive in his work. 

My dogs push to engage the helper, not the sleeve. 

Z, I tought this and many other of my dogs the command out in obedience, out on ball, out on tug, simpyby switching, and as soon as the ommand out is on his harddisk, I start to use it in bitework, now, it takes a well balanced dog to out this easy without any problems, alo becase they are not sleevehappy and will bite any othe bodypart without any problem, that is why you dont have to fight, strangle or Ecollar them of the sleeve  

basically this phrase from bzcz says it all

My dogs push to engage the helper, not the sleeve

I know, I don't struggle with it either and all my dogs really, really, really like to bite.  Well except one :)

anyway, so you taught your dog to out using a tug reward, thanks for telling me something I already know.  yet somehow learning to teach an out with a reward, they can understand that when doing bitework  you aren't the deal anymore after the out, the man is.  Kind of like I said at the beginning :)  Not even sure what your'e arguing.

and so do mine.  So far you guys haven't said anything different that I don't already do.  Making it about the man isn't difficult, even when you use a tug