Dog Training - Crowd Control - Page 5

I don't think you need choking and ecollars either

Has anyone seen those police dog training vids on Youtube where the dog is biting the bad guy and the handler is walking/running up to it and the dog, if standing, starts to circle around the bad guy or if on the ground on a bite suit, it starts to chew its way up or down the helper? Do you know why its doing that? 

Because of this choking BS that handlers are trained to out their dogs while screaming on top of their lungs, "OOOOOUUUUTTTTTT"...the dog knows that "handler near me means I will get clobbered and made to let go, screw this" so the dog panics and starts the above mentioned routine. The point I want to make here is that for 70% of dogs, E collars are not needed to TRAIN an out, they ARE needed to reinforce and remind a dog every once in a while that outing the first time is not optional. I would never use a choker to do it and yes, I am old enough to remember the days 30 plus years a go when it was standard practice.

 

no z I dont need

you knew what I meant :)

Kim Said:
Prager/bzcz

Lacking an explanation for "the tug reward at the out"......I would tentatively agree with your comments.

Having said that, I think you are both jumping the gun and making comments without enough information in which to base your comments.

Maybe, that particular dog has previous issues with "the out" and they are bridging it in training so to speak. Maybe..... there is more going on than what is seen or explained in the video....I don't know, and I suspect no one reading this post knows the answer either.

Maybe an idea, just an idea to look at all of the possibilities....and discuss the possibilities in a positive and intelligent manner... prior to labeling this as a "flawed training principle" or "extremely bad training".

Just my 2 cents.......carry on doing what this Forum does best!

 

Hans said: 

Kim

 Kim without reading the other posts ( no time) I will respond to yours first so forgive me if I repeat something. 

 To teach the dog to out for tug reward is bad in any case  for these resons.:

1/ what the dog learns first will learn better then what he learns later and will revert to under pressure. Thus if at any time you teach the dog to automatically come back to a handler on out the dog will do that indeed. However the dog needs to stay in guard and return to a handler on command. To teach the dog to automatically out and at the same time to come to heel and bite something  will stop the dog from guarding. I have had extensive discussions with LE on this topic. They calimed that there is nothing wrong with dog to return to handler on "out". I fundamentally disagree .  Example may be failure of a LEK9 in Albuquerque  NM now notorious incident where the dog returned from a perpetrator and start playing with his satchel.  It can be argued that that ( besides many other things)  subsequently caused the life of the homeless mentally disturbed man. I have discussed this with many LE K9 handlers and trainers  I respect and there were opposing views of quality on both sides. 

 I personally believe that the dog should out on Command and stay with the perp, then return on command to heel and then sit and than rewarded. That may not be possible  on the street which is not training field or Hollywood. but that should be the training pattern during training.

2/ if the dog has issues in outing then the dog needs to be  put to square one and start from basics -AGAIN.  To patch the mistake with automatic come on out and automatic brewrd bite   without fixing basics is incorrect training. McDonalds. The fact is that I see more and more often that LE teaches their K9 as a matter of principle automatic out and on top of it automatic reward bite on  toy ....or at least overwhelming immediate expectation of such reward. ...which is also not exactly correct. I personally believe that the reward for out should be rebite and reward of the toy is for come to heel and sit. 2 separate issues - 2 separate rewards for 2 separate exercises which should not be mixed in the dog's mind.  

3/ return to toy bite is  also flawed because the dog is returning reliably  for reward bite only if it is stronger then stimulus on a original bite on a man. If it is not stronger then he will not out and he will not return. However more importantly and more ominously  if the dog sees the toy stimulus as stronger then original bite then when under the tress of the real bite he will (or may )release the bite prematurely and  return to the toy bite before he is commanded to do so. In such case the dog often just touches the perp with his teeth and comes for reward on toy bite. That is exactly what happened in the above mentioned NM incident.  Correct training of out is done by  reward (re)- bite on a perp.( helper)and not by bite on  a toy  in the hand of a handler.!!! That way after out command  the dog is focused correctly on the "bad guy" and not on the toy in handler's hand. 

4/  For the reasons above I can not see  good reason ever to train the dog automatic  return to bite toy on out command. I do have open mind though and am willing to listen to reasonable rebuttal. And I have for several years now. So far I have not seen proof that I am wrong.  Such training( outmatic come to toy reward on out command)  is a classical short cut training and as such it will backfire and usually if it does it is in critical situations where the dog is under the stress.   I am 62 and training dogs for more the 40 years and I am priding myself on always trying to learn new approaches to training and LE K9 tactics. I read books on such training and tactics and historical accounts of K9 actions and I am  anxiously  looking for new and better  better techniques.  Just today I got me Trident K9 Warriors. 

 I then go and train these techniques with LE friends and discuss it with them to correlate it with their experiences. That is what I do. That is my passion.  I am saying this in order to clear air before  being  accused to be only a  key board trainer.

 Prager Hans

P.S.  I would like to Slam to chime on it. Even so he hates my guts i always read anxiously he posts on dogs from LE point of view. 

Duke:VK, do you think this way of rewarding on a tug can result in a situation where he comes agains hooligans and they throw some small item at the handlers and the dog will go for the prey/item instead of the hooligans?

Hans: Absolutely!!!!!!

zdog said:I don't really understand why people are so against using a tug reward for an out for any dog, sport or "real"  all this talk about high prey sport dogs, blah, blah, blah.  Do you know how easy it is to train one of those high prey sport dogs to maintain his grip on a man over chasing a tug? or any other thrown object? 

Hans: reward on prey object is fine, good excellent. I do not see anybody to be against it.. But automatic return and automatic reward on toy is not.  Resons for thsi in my post above. 

Zdog said and again I say, if you can't teach an out guard while using a tug to teach the out, you need a new line of work.  I've heard all the excuses and somehow we train past it all the time.

Tell me, how do you train the out so it's perfect and doesn't have any pitfalls of using a tug?  

and I don't care about "sport dogs" and "real dogs".  It wasn't my point that they're the same my point was even those crap sport dogs can be trained with a tug and still focus on the man.  Sure a dog with some balance can as well.

Hans said:

zdog LOL if you do not know how to train dog out without toy in the hands of handler then YOU need a new line of work. 

oh boy, I don't "need" one of those either.  Give me a tug, give me a ball, give me nothing but a dog and a bad guy. Tell me I need to use a leash, tell me I can't.  Tell me it's ecollar only.  I don't really care.  I'm quite confident I can train the dog well to a final useable product.  :)

and I certain I could train a dog to out and guard thru stress and anything else you want to throw at it using a tug.  

Hired dog  the training and what is done on the street are 2 different things. In US just about all K9s are lifted off the perp on a street. There multiple reasons. One is legal. If you command the dog to out  you have acknowledged legally that there is no reason for the dog to bite anymore. if the dog does not out - and there is a good chance that that will happen- and you command the dog again and got forbid again and again and someone has it on video - which is very likely these days- then you have a major legal headache since you were not "legally" in control of your dog.  If you lift a dog off then you will hardly be accused of such thing. 

 Prager Hans