Dog Training - Crowd Control - Page 9

How does a dog take possession? Maybe the way you are wording it is wrong, and the bite of a toy from a civil dog is one of possession as a reward instead of for dispatching a threat. My 02 cents.

beetree to whom are you addressing your last post and would you  say it different way?  If you are addressing me and if  I understand you properly then I would say yes it is a reward.  

1/But the reward must be stronger then the original stimulus in order for it to be reward. In another words if the dog wants to bite the decoy or perp more then the toy then  such dog is not going to out.

2/  then it follows that if the reward is stronger then the biting on the  perp then the dog often   going to reverse from the bite to toy too eagerly and  prematurely. Which is quite a problem as seen on the NM homeless guy shooting video where that is exactly what happened.  I have mentioned the YouTube now notorious video and here is a link to it  and it is quite graphic so do not watch it if you do not care to see a guy getting shot dead. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwytoxMuk4U

 On thay video shot you will see the dog barely bite the perp and then returning way too soon for reward bit which he find in the blkue fabric bag.

3/ weaker dogs will have an excuse to come off the bite too soon for reward bite. Here daddy. Look I touched him with the teeth and I am out of there.Thanks god!!! for reward. That is second reason why the dog may come off too soon.  Yes you can train through it but why to even start and set the dog up for potential problem when there are better ways to do it. 

Prager Hans

 

Prager, the dog wants also to bite the perp to please his master. If his master then too, provides and desires a release, then maybe over thinking is not necessary.. I think some call this bidability. I used to not understand this as an inheritable trait, but I think it maybe can be true, perhaps there is something to it.

The dog must have the drive to grip for himself or he is unsuitable for civil work.  Biddability is the ability to guide the dog into the behavior we desire.

The concept of a dog biting a perp to please his master is something that I hear everyonce in awhile, but in the real world it doesn't happen.  When you train a dog, you can't make him grip.  He has to want to.  If he doesn't, then he won't work.  There is no way to communicate to the dog, "please bite the bad guy for me". 

That entire concept is based on a flawed premise. 

can someone please tell me why you want a gripping dog for crowd control - also like to know how many have actually had to hold back a violent crowd with a dog...anyone?

 

theory much

 You don't.  The perfect crowd control dog is a snapping dog.  Not a gripping dog.  Problem is the Police Depts con't afford to have all the different types of dogs.     So they have to  work with the ones they have.  That's why they cross train them.  PD friend of mine in milwaukee has a little malinois and when he puts her in harness she's turns in to a little snapping monster.  That's his cue for the behavior he wants.  Collar is for gripping.  You teach that through multiple decoys with loose clothing (no equipment).  The second she snags a piece of clothing and tears it, another decoy engages her.  She learns to spit and watch for the second attack.  Will it hold in the real world?  Don't know hasn't happened yet.

We train for as real as we can and hope it's enough when needed.  

vk4gsd FYI LO I was on the both ends of crowd control. In anti communist demonstrations in Prague and  I train with LE as a trainer. I was not handling  dog in real demonstration, but I do not need to go on moon in person to know that there is 83% less gravity,  that of the earth. This type of  argument always baffled me. Have you handle dog in such and such real situation? Most LEO's keep telling me that they are not dog trainers and thus that they want from me to tell them  the training approach. If we encounter new scenario then we  go back and forth on what works or does not from their point of view and from my point of view as a trainer.  For me it is something I love to do and it comes with ultimate responsibility to teach the right thing.  From the aspect of dog training  the LEOs trust me and depend on me. That is why I like to discuss theory as you say. Practice without understanding a theory is a haphazard approach and even so some do not get occupied by it and succeed is only because someone before them was involved in theory and then taught them how to use it.  Theory without practice and practice without theory leads to a failure. 

 Prager Hans

 

vk, to answer your question, why would anyone want a gripping dog for crowd control, it is simple and I know you already know. Anyone who understands what the job a dog has in crowd control, would not want the dog to grip. Here's the video of my dog doing crowd control with a goat herd, but same with a human herd.

 

in every case the ideal dog for patrol/crowd control and personal protection should have different drives and mindset than the ideal sports/points dog today and that is something many dont understand and say it is all about the training

unfortunately today many breed and select for prey only

 

I think many working dog folks fall into the trap of assessing all gsd from the viewpoint of what it takes to compete ipo at the highest level. it is a bias that is innate and they are not even aware they have a bias.


while i certainly agree that the ipo sets the best available base line for assessing the breed it can dupe people into thinking it is the best measuring stick for every.individual dog for every functional application.

hell the nervy sharp get em before the get me dog is certainly the superior dog in some contexts.

joan off topic i have considered keeping goats for meat and a training herd but am told they need a lot of work re internal parasites, they destroy pasture and difficult to confine and the meat is an acquired taste.

thoughts.