Lift versus Out. - Page 4

Orkies

I have over 300 dogs in my two helper books alone. Including the UDC Nationals. Over 20+ years as club helper training dogs, handlers, and helpers.    Experience isn't my problem.

Every dog I have seen "lifted" is lifted to out.  So it appears we are sending contradictory signals to the dog.  Also I want the dog to learn to fix his grip and he can't do this if all the learning is predicated on him being "lifted" to learn it.  Not to mention all the avoidance that I see from it.

Do you have video of this working without all of the negatives that Prager's video shows?

Hired dog,

Good to know.  I have never seen one that didn't end up on the ground.  I've had it happen twice to me and we still ended up on the ground.  Don't know how or why.  That's why I was wondering. 

I have personally seen the lift used a lot for outing, which I personally dont like.  I have never taught the out like that.  I just recently began using lift offs on a prong to increase a young dogs drive and grip for the prey object.  The way I avoid handler conflict is never be predictable and let the dog win more then naught.  Sometimes Ill do a lift and let the dog win.  Fight the dog a bit for the object then lift the dog of her front feet with one hand and fight the dog for the prey object while repeating the bite command (dog bites down harder). Put the dog down before they run out of air and or drop the object.  Praise heavily pet the dog all over, fight the dog again for the object let her win, grab the prong do some half lifts and try to steal the object and praise/release the dog with the object still in her mouth.

Occassionally I keep the dog up there until he drops the object then ill kick it away and rev up the dog before I release him to grab the item.

To my mind this builds strength and intensity while decreasing handler conflict.  Dog learns that just because the handler is pulling or lifting his collar doesnt mean he will always lose and that winning is always rewarded.  The occasional loss only builds frustration that is released upon the object which in the end is a win.

Where I see handler conflict and the lift off costing the dog in grip is when every single time the handler outs the dog he does a lift off, every time he touches the collar its a lift off, everytime the handler approaches the dog while on the bite its a lift off.  This is just bad training to my mind and has led to some handlers I know of getting chewed up.

See, I just don't understand.  Putting the dog back down before they run out of air and all the other hoops. 

To me if you want to build grips, then build grips.  Use the leather and set the grip.  No conflict and works extremely well.

When you want the out, you start up the action again.  Dog spits it to go back to work.  No conflict and you are teaching the dog to want to engage.

I've yet to see a video of the lift working as advertised. 

Thanks to Kim and Prager there are 3-4 videos of it not working to accomplish anything but negatives.

Not a very good success ratio.

 The lifting of the dog utilizes effect called "opposition reflex" which was first described by I.P.Pavlov also named  as "freedom reflex" or "push x pull reflex". You pull on the dog on the leash  and he pulls the other way. You push the dog down and  resists and pushes up. Same with the bite. You pull on something ( toy, sleeve,...) in the dog's mouth and and the dog will pull away. By lifting the dog you are pulling the dog away from sleeve thus he tries to grip harder not to lose it.  You can agree with this or not but it is what it is.  THIS IS NOT TEACHING THE DOG TO OUT  IT IS THE OPPOSITE. TAHT IS ALL i AM TRYING TO SAY .  If you like this approach or not is a different story. Some like clicker and some do not some like e collar and some do not .  They all work. 

 One thing is a fact. Too many out's will bring the bite down from it's highest potential either by  thinking that there is something wrong with biting or by anticipation of the out and  by employing this now and then into the workout will bring the desire fo the dog to hold on up. 

 Prager  Hans

Too Many outs will NOT weaken the bite, IF the dog is trained correctly.

Trained your way with the conflict inherent in your lifting procedure, I can see why you think that but it is not universally true.  It is a byproduct of the pressure that the handler is putting on the dog from the lift.

A dog trained correctly in the out will not drop in grip strength from too many outs but he can start to anticipate them and come off too fast for max points.  Easy enough to prevent through training.

Your lifting procedure applies Pavlov's opposition reflex incorrectly.  That's what leads to all the negative consequences.

bzcz

In haz's example haz is building drive and grip together under stress. Not just the grip, as I read it. The example is almost identical to puppy training minus the stressors, at least how I do it, right, wrong or indifferent. 

My question is, why is there handler conflict if any in the prong and lift as haz has outlined. 

Why would your dog view being lifted in the air as handler conflict?

To me the conflict starts when you call the out. 

Thanks to anyone who can take a break and teach the a new guy.

Because stress is a negative emotion.  Especially for a young puppy.  Mental stress creates worry or even fear.

If you want to increase grip strength and fullness stress the grip, not the dog. 

Older dogs are taught how to deal with stress appropriately.  This lifting technique does not allow for a correct response and it becomes negative because it relies on the handler creating the stress.  If I come up and stress you, what is your view of me?  Doesn't matter how sporadically I stress you, the fact is that I do, you know it and mixing it up will create the worry, am I going to stress you this time?  no? good (phew).  Or you are? damn!  here goes.....

WHere is there any upside to that?

If I want to build or stress the grip, the handler is a post and he encourages his dog with pets and voice.  Now you are on the same team as your dog.  No conflict.  HELPER stresses the grip by pulling sleeve or toy from dog.  KEY DIFFERENCE here.  Pull the object away from the dog, That is Opposition Reflex.   NEVER the dog away from the object.  That leads to different neg behaviors.  Dog/puppy has to learn to deal with the conflict that the HELPER is inflicting which will teach the dog countering behaviors which are a GOOD thing. Will also lead (with good dog and helper) to aggression being channeled to the helper.  He cant do that if the stress comes from the handler.  He has to just take it as best he can and hope he channels it into grip. 

And yes, we have dogs that we can set the grip on with a pinch collar on.  Dog doesn't see that as stress from the handler so doesn't release grip or drive even though the pinch is an obedience tool.  Show me ANY dog with the lift technique that can maintain a full hard grip with pinch collar tension.

We're going to be shooting video this thurs (I hope) to show some of this. 

Got it I think, your foundation is everything from the owner is immediate conflict when not aligned with what the dog wants.  Even tug play is conflict between the owner and what the dog wants. Theres no middle ground. All stress should comes from other then the owner, always, period, even as a pup. There is no game in the dogs mind, In the dogs mind its always me against whats in the way of what I want, even when its my owner. 

Is that kinda on the right track.

How do you handle a direct challenge from a dog without creating conflict? If my dog flips me a paw which happens kinda often around here how would that be handled with your system. Still reward based?