Difference between Working and Show Lines - Page 6

I apolgize to Do Right and Fear No One. I just saw his picture and did not realize that he was just a harmless little pudgy old man. I will not respond to any more of his attacks on me period... I wish him well...

ladywolf: I tend to agree with you. When a newcomer comes along they have a lot of questions; some may seem "stupid" to the experienced GSD person when in fact I'm sure they asked the same questions in the start of their journey. The database is ok to get SOME info and various opinions but it is always best to have someone who loves what they do, has proven experience and knowledge that you can goto directly without being afraid of getting bashed for asking "stupid" questions. I'm not sure the people unwilling to help or go out of their way to mentor the newbies is due to being "stuck up" (although sometimes that is the case); I think it's more that they don't want to waste their time on people who come and go and aren't serious about putting in the committment to training. I asked this very question; "why are dog people not always overly friendly?" That was the response I got. When you ask a question on a database you get so many different views by the time you're done reading them all your head is spinning off your shoulders and you're even more confused than before you asked the question.

;-) I am 6' and 220 you blind idiot. What are you? 5'7 and skinny? I'm just guessing, because the smaller they are, the more they tend to use capital letters trying to intimidate others. I would suggest Oli eliminate you from this site as you do nothing but try unsuccessfully to put others down. I guess that makes you feel bigger and better about yourself. Since you have "researched" me, looking for whatever you can use to get a dig or two in, I have researched you. I see you try and sell a lot of dogs on here that are untitled and untrained (usally with a promise that they will be trained to sit and stay, geesh), but always with the statement "should easily rate a V". I would love to know if you have ever worked and trained a dog to "V" yourself, or did you buy one or two already titled? Just asking :)

Seriously folks. Is this a coyote? http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/432321.html

An old saying-- If you are not part of the solution you are (part of) the problem. Name calling doesn't change a thing. Ranger, I have emailed you privately and expressed my respect for your opinion. Mentioned some things I thought we may have in common! I believe Do Right is obviously one of us. Please, temper?? Respect your elders and realize no one will agree everytime. You ARE on solid ground with your beliefs on breeding--- don't let personalities shake you. A sincere apology is NOT tainted with a cynical "shot". That "pudge" may be a "vest" and he might actually surprise you, what do you think??? I am smiling as I type. Actually laughing now! SMILE everyone--- Morgan

I am smiling also PJ. I won't surprise anyone though. Only a fool would be surprised when he is told beforehand. I don't think DR is a fool, just pompous. Never wore a vest when I worked. Didn't need one. Too damn good. The proof is my age :)

Your right PJ..Just having some fun... Actually I like Do right and fear no one... He's alot if fun! No hard feeling I hope! Back to my point! I am trying to make people understand it is wise to do your homework before breeding. You no longer have to just learn from repeating the same mistakes others have made thru the years. Use the interent to learn and do things right. Of course nothing is perfect but at least refuse to go by the old addage that it is ok to make mistakes.. Join a club and be-friend a good breeder or keep asking questions on this board..Find a breeder online who will help you. Don't just use a picture to buy a dog..go see it etc.. lots of things you can do to be a good breeder.

Apology accepted DR. You were fun also. When I am snowbound, it is nice to have a game to play. I am just fortunate that you wanted to play with me :) Now that we are back on subject, you started this thread when I had started a thread asking what the people on this site considered a working dog. I wanted to know if people here thought a working GSD included Therapy Dogs, Schutzund Sport Dogs, etc. I personally think of working dogs as only those that have a job in the military or in law enforcement, be it bomb detection, customs, or similar things. I was asking the difference between a working dog and a workingline dog. What I was trying to get at was if several generations of workingline dogs never actually "held" a job, but were only used for sport, to keep their work ethic sharp, did this constitute perpetuating a workingline, or does it go off into a third area, that could be called "sport dog lines" or "sport working lines". I never did get this point across because of the game we had. If you care to address this issue, have at it. But please, do not "pull my chain" as you stated you like to do for fun. I am too old and feable to keep up with you :). I too think one should not go by the old addage that it is okay to make mistakes. You just end up having to apologize or compounding your mistake by trying to prove a negative. But, we all do make mistakes. Stephanitz made some (I refer to his statements that a women can not be "the master"). Former BSZS Judges have made some (I refer to the putting up of extra large dogs, dogs without sufficient prodegy, dogs out of the same lines causing certain lines to become overly dominate), etc.

Here is my opinion on this.. You have two separate parallels. 1. Breeding Show or Working 2. Job specific #1 first: I call a working line breeding those who have over the years maintained the working abilities such as solid nerves, high drives and hardness. So if you purchase a workingline it does not matter what you actually do with him. Many groups such as police and military want this type of breeding. If you are lucky enough to buy a working line that can show then you have a really good dog! 1A#If you breed for show you must have the correct conformation, color etc to compete. So if you buy a pup it will always be a showline even if you do schutzhund , police work , therapy dog etc... #2 Job Specific: Whatever you need from your dog in order to do a specific job should determine the type of dog you want regardless of which breeding line it is from. So the actual dog you buy and train to do a certain job does not change the line that it is from. You get alot of crossover in certain fields like SAR and so on. We don't tell a policeman that his dog that just passed the certification test won't be allowed to continue because he is from show lines. Over time the two separate breeding lines have become more apparant and you are seeing less crossover dogs. Many breeders are now realizing this and we have a hot topic as people try to make changes.

A while back, one of the former BSZS Judges stated Mal's should be introduced into the GSD's to produce better working abilities. I noticed recently that puppies are being advertised on this site from show x DDR crosses, promising "drives". The sires side is Dammwiess and the dams side is Grafental lines. Are the workinglines we have already, not "good enough"? Why would a BSZS Judge make such a statement instead of saying we should introduce workinglines into the showlines? His statement indicates to me that his feelings are that (A), the workinglines are inadequate, or (B), that the difference between the lines is not that far apart and another breed needs to be introduced to re-enforce the work ethic of the present working lines and showlines (that would be a big mistake). Working lines maybe, as looks are usually not considered. My first thought was that he was addressing genetic diversity problems, but surely with dogs all over the world and two lines more distinct than ever before, genetic diversity is probably not his thought. So, again the question: Are the working lines we now have, not good enough to propagate, to do the jobs we ask of them? I am taking into consideration that, this judge's statement is just one mans opinion, but I am reading more and more about crossing our workinglines with Mal's, and people suggesting it. I am also reading more and more that the Mal's are running circles around the shepherds in the actual jobs.