Best age to seperate - Page 5

Bubba, while I agree with you on dogs biting kids, I do not agree with you that female or the male in the litter has anything to do with imprinting anything on puppies. That crap "bite inhibition" everyone talks about that the puppies supposedly learn from their mother is just that, crap. It is MY job to teach that puppy to not bite, if I dont want it to and it my job to "allow", not train a genetically correct dog to bite, if I so choose and I do choose that.

Your assertion that a puppy who learns to not bite other dogs will also not ever bite human children is totally false. Pups learn and explore with their mouths, I know, my right hand and arm looked scarred for a year from my young dog. Of course if a bitch corrects a weak pup hard enough for biting, it wont bite again, but, a dog like that is useless to me and those who work their dogs. I do not need nor want MY puppy with the litter after its weaned or with its mother, I want it with me at 6 weeks to learn what I need it to know and shape its behavior for the rest of its working life.

Wolves that are raised in captivity with the purpose of having them grow up tame and habituated to people for use in movies, etc., the pups are taken AWAY from the mother at three days after birth and bottle raised. The reason for this is that the pups will more likely imprint on the humans bottle feeding and raising it, rather than on the adult wolves. 

It is no longer  necessary for dog puppies to remain with the parent dogs indefinitely in order to learn how to behave....humans are supposed to raise the pup. Other wise, just put them out In a field and throw a deer carcass out to them periodically...they'll be fine with that. Just don't expect them to become an eyes for the blind dog, or an explosives detection dog in the big city. There are plenty of feral dogs being raised in family groups and I haven't heard of anyone bragging on them making any drug busts, lately.

Humans can always find an excuse to do what is best for them and their ego regardless of the science and demonstrated truth of what they disagree with.  There is nothing biological or based on science that makes 8 weeks or any other time frame best or even useful to the puppy as far as separating the puppy from the rest of his family for the benefit of humans.  The benefit of humans is the operative term here .. humans are more than willing to do what is best for them and to hell with what the puppy needs .. money, ego, and human selfishness are the motivators for what most people do with their dogs not what is best for their dogs be they a puppy or an elderly dog.  Dogs are fed dry kibble because it is cheaper and more convenient than real food and puppies are separated from their mother and litter mates at 8 weeks because it is convenient and best for the breeder.  Anyone who believes that humans can teach dogs how to be good and well balanced dogs has never read reports on why children raised in orphanages or in the foster child care system are seldom normal or why the story of Romulus and Remus being raised by wolves and being fed by woodpeckers is a fairy tale myth and not fact.  The young of every species of mammal needs their parents and social group to nurture them.  There is no time line for when the parent's work is done.  Human children that have poor parenting and social support before 6 years can seldom recover and personally I think the first 6-8 months of a puppy's life are just as important.  The 8 week myth is just a convenient way that we humans use to justify what we want to do to puppies and not what is best for the puppies.  Puppies can stay with their parental and social group and still be trained .. perhaps even better for the puppies and the training if the parents and social group has the same training and skills.  Puppies learn how to hunt and track from their parents and social group faster than from dumb humans.  My dogs are born knowing how to track and they can improve their skills from interacting with me, their parents, their social group, or all three peer groups.  I suppose if you believe the model of separating puppies at 8 weeks from their parents and peer group you then believe the British aristocrats model of sending children to boarding schools but even they waited until the children were older .. they do not send their two year olds to boarding school.

I don't believe that it is better for puppies to stay with their dog families or with the breeder til 6 months. THAT is done to the benefit of the breeder looking to keep the best pup of a litter. It is unfair to the dog.

  I want my puppies going 'home' when they are that age.(8weeks) It would be fine for them staying together if they were going to live a dogs life, which hopefully, thhhey are not.

   I feel thats the reason so many dogs end up discarded. No training, socialization at an early age. What benefit can a dog gain by being kept kenneled or crated the first oths of their lives, the most important times.

A dear friend of mine was raised in an orphanage in the early nineteen hundreds. He ran away when he was about ten years old. He joined the circus, became an executive on the Ringling Show and was a self made millionaire. He was one of nicest people I ever had the pleasure to meet. The reason he turned out to be successful and prosperous was because he was brilliant, he had drive, he knew what he wanted in life so he made a plan and pursued his vision. He lived to well into his eighties, but he didn't know his exact birth date.... that was irrelevant to his success, however.

So not knowing his birth date and having drive is probably the only thing a dog would have in common with my friend....

Believe whatever you want if it makes justifying what you choose to do for your dogs and puppies easier.  There is no reason that a puppy of 8 weeks must be separated from it's mother at 8 weeks except to satisfy human wants and needs.  A puppy that stays with it's mother and sire as well as it's social group and kin can be just as successful or more so than one separated at 8 weeks from it's own family and kin.  I can think of many more examples of the negatives of lack of parental influence based on social examples from other mammals rather than the occassional success story proving the contrary.  The foster care system and adoption system worldwide is awash in examples of human children seperated from their own social and kinship group at birth who had severe social and behavioral problems as a result.  That some babies and young can survive, overcome, and even thrive in a broken system is not an endorsement of the system or a condemnation of those damaged by it.  The human conceived idea that puppies should be separated from their canine parents at 8 weeks has no basis in science or biology for any mammal species and there is no reason to believe that canines are the exception rather than part of the rule.

Bubba, you are one of a kind. Humans are not dogs, in fact primates are not dogs.  You're comparing apples and pomegranates. I don't subscribe to your method of raising puppies, but I won't insult you for it. Your insults and stereotyping anyone who has experience which has been positive raising eight week old puppies don't deserve your insults, either.

Btw, I'm certainly not endorsing the state of orphanages or foster care for kids. I was raised in a foster home and it was not what I would have chosen for myself, but I had no say so. My friend was smart enough to escape and get away from the orphanage.  My puppies  going into a good home at eight weeks cannot be compared to little kid going into a foster home. 

Bubba, how did you determine which of the dogs you raised in their 'family and peer group' for however many months or years, should be the one up rooted and torn from their family to be sent away to live with strangers and no more mother dog father dog, siblings, etc.?

The important word in the original post was BEST .. very little of what humans do for dogs involves what is best for them.  From feeding dry kibble to vaccination for rabies to end of life decisions for elder dogs most decisions made by humans involve money and what is best for the humans not the dogs.  The OP question was when is the best time to separate the puppy from their siblings, parents, and social group??  What is BEST for the puppy is that the puppies grow up with their parents and siblings present and in their social group as much as possible.  I have a mother and 3 year old son that live together in a friends household along with another unrelated male that is part of their social group but not a blood relative.  I have 3 year old brothers and sisters who live side by side and still play together.  It requires management to keep peace and not have unwanted breedings but the dogs seem very happy with their lives and relationships.  Separating puppies at 8 weeks can be a useful training and management strategy but I doubt it is BEST for the puppies .. just more convenient for their human owners and trainers.  If the OP had asked what is best for humans wishing to train a puppy and only having room for one or two dogs (which is normally the case) then the 8 week management strategy for separating puppies has more merit.  What is best for the dogs and what is better than something worse is a different question.  Feeding dry dog food is not best for the dog but it is better than starvation or being hungry.  In this case the perfect can be the enemy of the merely good.  We tell ourselves that separating puppies from their siblings, parents, and social group is BEST for them but the reality is that it is best for humans and not for the puppies. What would be BEST would be for the puppies to grow up and be trained by humans if training is required while in contact with and in social groups containing their parents, siblings and kin.  Sadly that is not usually possible.

Ibrahim:  Having raised a couple of litters on the basis that some or most of

the pups were not going anywhere,  a luxury most Breeders do not have, and

seen the interaction over the time of their 'growing up' in the company of their

dam and extended family,  [not the sires], I am leaning towards what Bubba

argues - a little.   As indicated above I am aware of arguments that are made

about separation @ less or more weeks of age,  but I do not attempt to say "I know"

the correct answer;   I am also aware of the situation with feral / village dogs.

The point where I diverge from Bubba's argument is I don't think he factors in

the extent to which the domestication of our canis familiaris affects the process.

That this process has infantalised the dogs kept by people may have some bearing

on fear stages and on the need for human rather than doggy company.  It is certainly

true that common 'dog training' literature will go on about getting your pup earlier so

that it does not become so interested in canine company that it makes it harder to

train obedience and attention to the owner/handler;   but to my mind this mostly

indicates the lower teaching and bonding abilities of non-professional Jo Public with

their pet dogs, rather than saying anything definitive about the pups needs.  As Bubba

says, there is always a large element of consideration for humans rather than the dogs.