Nature or Nurture ? - Page 2

HD & Susie,  so sad for your loss.

My heart reaches out to both of you, susie and Hired Dog. It is never easy to lose them, and when it takes them from us before their time, it amplifies the space they leave behind.

susie, I think it really is an equal combination of both, and the 'nurture' part includes the effects of both the dam of the litter AND the people involved in whelping and rearing the litter along with our own impact as the new owners of a puppy. 

The dogs in my life were always male until I was in my early twenties, when I became involved with sled dog racing and began working with females as well. I'd always found it easy to establish the bond with my male dogs, and never imagined there was anything that could eclipse that partnership, and yet once I teamed up with females, it was as if a puzzle that looked and felt it had always been complete had inexplicably developed a opening for a piece that had never before existed. I love my male dogs, but I AM my females. 

I think you make a valid point about some people simply not being suited to raising puppies to become the dogs they want them to be, too--and I've seen that same bent in the rearing of cattle and horses, too.  There are people I'll gladly purchase a heifer calf from when she's still under 6 months of age, yet I'd never buy a yearling or a young cow that they raised, because despite them having all the husbandry skills and providing excellent care for their livestock, these folks just don't have the natural inclination to work with weaned calves in a manner that produces quiet, easily-handled mature adults...and the cattle I have MUST readily accept any type of physical handling I may need to do with them without needing additional people or anything more than a halter and a headlock to safely control the cow. 

Successfully raising a puppy to be able to fulfill every need you'll ever call upon them for isn't something for everyone, and personally, while I presently have two dogs who went through their developmental milestones under the guidance of someone other than me, I'd be lying if I said I didn't regret not having been able to have these two lovely, loving and life-enhancing dogs when they were still babies, when I could have shaped certain behaviors they have into a different expression form before it became self-rewarding for each of them. That will never stop me from adopting rescues, especially senior dogs, though, or from loving them just as strongly as the ones I've raised from 8 weeks on up.  

Susie and Hired Dog:  I am sorry for your loss.  My condolences...

I always find the debate of nature vs. nurture endlessly fascinating.  Then again, I have always started with puppies and molded them into how I want them to behave in my world.  Some puppies have had better temperaments than others, but all fit into my life and lived to old age with me.  I have never adopted or bought an older dog, and I often wonder how will I do that?  How will I teach and train an older dog into fitting into my home life?

Thank you for your kind words everyone.

Can I put a spin on this and get your opinions? 

I'm typically a hard and fast proponent of nature- ie, you cannot change genetics, however, what would you say about a case where a pup lives with someone with some mental/personality issues? If this volatile situation is the only situation the pup is ever exposed to, how will this show in the dog? Will it at all? Picture a dog who is not allowed influence from factors outside the house and yard (because the owner is antisocial and aggressive-natured). I am not talking about a dog who is intentionally mistreated or physically harmed.What would you expect might manifest in the dog's temperament? 

I will stay out of the nature or nurture debate. I'm not knowledgeable enought to share my thoughts. But, I did want to express my condolences to Susie and Hired Dog. I am so very sorry for both your losses. They are never here long enough.

(Jenni)   Oddly perhaps I have known some dogs owned and raised by

homeless people, often with drug/alchohol/anger management problems,

turn out to be very stable, friendly, loyal, animals.

Maybe anything that is a genetic nervebag does not last the course in these

circumstances.

Homeless people's dogs would be just about the opposite of what I'm talking about as far as environment. Never mind...not important. 

There was a study done with GSDs...maybe someone on the database remembers it and can give details??

The pups from confident bitches were given to fearful, shy bitches to raise, and vica versa.

Guess what? The majority of the pups raised by the confident mom were confident, and the majority raised by the shy mom were shy and fearful!

So, nurture DOES play an important role!

The only dog I've owned that has had problems with being shy and fearful was a Shiloh shepherd. I had her from 8 weeks, so it was definitely genetic. I gave her 10X more socialization than I gave to my other dogs, and did get some improvement, but it was a very very slow, frustrating process.

Star was afraid of kids when I brought her home from her breeder. It was simply due to lack of exposure. A couple of sessions in a playground with kids and treats, and she was fine after that.

Teena was scared of kids, despite having met my friend's children the day I brought her home, and been exposed to them many times after that. Despite lots of work, she was still frightened of them when I rehomed her at 2 years of age.

Her fears didn't manifest at first. The 'fear period' started around 9 months, very suddenly, and didn't go away. Her new owner did get her to finally pass the temperament test at the age of 4, so she has improved with age. Shilohs mature slowy, so that may be a factor.

The breeder tried to put the blame on me, but if you look at the Shiloh training forum, the vast majority of the posts are about dogs that have fear issues. Some oweners can't even get their dogs to go for a walk, because the won't leave the property!