Nature or Nurture ? - Page 4

I guess unknowingly I always tend to choose puppies out of sires and dams showing the same patterns of behavior.
Later on I always seem to choose the pup behaving like its parents.
And as soon as the pup is mine I tend to do the same kind of raising with all my dogs.
And I seem to be the same kind of "leader" all the time.

Does this make sense?

It´s really amazing, because I never cared about lineages, I only cared about the pup and its direct ancestors...

'For every BSP or BSZS or WUSV winner there were a hundred dogs with equal or better genetics that did not win or even compete in that contest or sport.'

Then that means the winners are better than sereral thousand others that did or did not compete.

It´s easy to blame the "sport" dogs, as long as the blaming person doesn´t need to show any proof of the own dog 

I think it is good news to hear that their are hundreds to thousands of dogs better than the winners. Depth is nothing to be ashamed of.

I though he said there were one hundred dogs better than each winner ....that still leaves thousands that each winner is better than.

At least he recognized that there are good dogs out there...

The question was which is more important nature or nurture and science says that some traits are highly heritable such as "potential" height or color or Cryptorchidism ( see description below which is somewhat factual but limited ).  Behaviors are not genetic in the sense that if dogs were not exposed to humans or dogs would these behaviors exist at all.  Digging is likely instinctive and probably genetic as almost all dogs dig as puppies or adults.  Walking at a heel position with the head held in a vertical orientation looking at the sky ( so called focused heeling ) is a totally learned behavior as I have not seen any dog do this naturally.   I'm sorry if any or all wish to believe that behavior is a highly heritable trait but the science points to behaviors being a combination of genetics, environment, and genetics x environment.  Tool use in mammmals was once held up by idiots as the proof that humans were "better" than other mammals but now we know that tool use is rather common in mammals and birds with the majority of this intelligent "humanlike" behavior being learned and passed down from parents and adults to offspring through learning.  Crows are a unchallenged user of tools and language which blew a big hole in the human exemption for ethical treatment of animals based on animals being soul less and stupid.  Dogs learn best from dogs when they have the chance but if they are separated from their parents and family group at 8 weeks they never get the chance to learn the things that only a dog can teach a dog.

Cryptorchidism is a combination of genetics and environment and is clearly not learned.  Focused heeling is a product of environment and is a totally learned behavior without practical use or reproductive or physical advantage to the dog other than that attached to this unnatural behavior by dog sport trainers. 

Cryptorchidism is common in male dogs, occurring at a rate of up to 10%.^[19] Although the genetics are not fully understood, it is thought to be a recessive, and probably polygenetic, trait.^[20] Some have speculated that it is a sex-limited autosomal recessive trait;^[21] however, it is unlikely to be simple recessive.^[20] Dog testes usually descend by ten days of age and it is considered to be cryptorchidism if they do not descend by the age of eight weeks.^[22] Cryptorchidism can be either bilateral (causing sterility) or unilateral, and inguinal or abdominal (or both). Because it is an inherited trait, affected dogs should not be bred and should be castrated. The parents should be considered carriers of the defect and a breeder should thoughtfully consider whether to breed the carrier parent or not. Littermates may be normal, carriers, or cryptorchid. Castration of the undescended teste(s) should be considered for cryptorchid dogs due to the high rate of testicular cancer, especially sertoli cell tumours.^[22] The incidence of testicular cancer is 13.6 times higher in dogs with abdominally retained testicles compared with normal dogs.^[19] Testicular torsion is also more likely in retained testicles. Surgical correction is by palpation of the retained testicle and subsequent exploration of the inguinal canal or abdomen, however it is against AKC rules to show altered dogs, making this correction pointless for breeding stock. Surgical correction is termed orchiopexy, i.e., a surgery to move an undescended testicle into the scrotum and permanently fix it there. Surgical correction is an option for pet dogs that will not be used for breeding.

i operate that behavior is the acting out of the genetic predisposition of the animal shaped by enviroment. ie, when a dog feels the need to use its defence drive to protect itself it is a thin line between fight and flight. I make certain to provide an enviroment which increases the likelyhood of fight. I get rid of the ones who like flight. I support fight but will not shelter a dog from stimulas to see what it is made of. 

Fight and flight are learned in the environment and require intelligence to be used correctly.  The dog that shows restraint in the use of aggression toward other dogs and humans under "real" conditions is intelligent which is partially genetic but in the majority learned and environmental.  So what does a "so called" flight aversive dog do when a 4 year old child with a stick in his hand whacks him in the head??  I know what my dogs will do and that is flee from the child rather than bite a child.  Teaching a dog to bite a jute sleeve does not make them smart or brave .. it just makes them trained to react to a threat with aggression.   In some cases the dogs react to jute sleeves and bite sleeves as a game.  Remember the case of the police K9 that chewed off the arm of a 4 year old child in his own back yard while the child's father who was a K9 officer took a shower??  So was that dog brave because he fought or stupid because he bit a child.  Dog sport is just a sport and it proves very little when examined from the perspective of all the possible situations a dog is asked to deal with intelligently.  No one would argue that a wolf is "yellow" as was suggested if a dog does not bite a jute sleeve yet a wolf which could and would kill a GSD of any size or bravery would in many cases choose to flee in the case of a Grizzly Bear or even a mother Bison charging him.  The wolf has learned that some fights are not worth fighting and that flight is the intelligent and correct choice in some scenarios. Aggression does not prove bravery, intelligence, or breeding suitability.  A dog that has the intelligence to only use aggression wisely and can control their emotions in a variety of scenarios is the dog that is remarkable.  In that regard Mondio Ring is far superior to IPO as a test of the mental intelligence or ability to think which the sport requires.  IPO is a little opera in which the contest is identical for each test while Mondio Ring involves different scenarios which challenge the dog with new problems to solve.