What will an IPO/Schutzund dog if the Sleeve is taken out of the picture? - Page 2

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by joanro on 07 April 2015 - 21:04

Safely trained is not the same as trained to be safe.

by vk4gsd on 07 April 2015 - 21:04

one need  look at the top ipo/knpv/LEO/MWD peds and you will see the peds are more the same than different.

 

as far as i can tell many police and millitary ie "real" have attempted to sustain their own breeding kennels to produce police/ MWD dogs, to varying degress they have all failed and either source from mainly the sport kennels to top up or found it more efficient to close down their own kennel and buy form dogs primarily bred for top sport.

 

a few australian agencies, RMCP, UK,slovakia have the biggest GSD gov  breeding programs i know of, would actually like to know what big gov owned  kennels there are beside these, anyone?

 

does germany breed their own GSD for LEO in a gov kennel?

 

top sport dogs are worth more money than police dogs so breeders breed for top sport if they can.

 

even the "real" breeders seem to fixate on promoting their studs doing basic sport routines and almost always have sport titles.

 


OGBS

by OGBS on 07 April 2015 - 22:04

Hi Joan,

I hope you are well!

What do you mean by "trained to be safe?"

In the 10-12 years I have been training in Schutzhund I have never heard anyone, ever, say we are going to train our dogs to be safe. I have, and still do train, some of the time, with some of the absolute best competitors in this sport in the USA and a few from Europe. I have never heard anyone say that. We do train our dogs to be in our control, just as police K-9's are, as well.

It is true that Schutzhund dogs are trained to bite a sleeve because that is what is required in this sport. This is no different than any other sport. In football (American) we use a football, in baseball, we use a baseball. That's what those sports require.

Maybe you are confusing your statement with this.

There is a technique for training dogs where they are made to feel safe on the sleeve. This is a technique that is not used with every dog, and should only be employed by very knowledgeable, experienced helpers. This technique is generally used with dogs that do not have enough drive (generally meaning courage) to engage the helper, or they are just highly defensive. In this instance the dog is pressured in to defense in order to get it to engage the helper. The dog is taught that its release of that pressure is to bite the sleeve and the pressure then comes off, hence the dog now feels safe. This is not a fun way to train for the dog or the helper. Some dogs do gain confidence from this and are then better able to engage the helper without a lot of pressue, but, most not. This comes from an old school method of training where the dog is being forced to do something that it mostly doesn't like to do. You see this with a lot of showline dogs with nice demeanor that are sent to Europe to be "titled" and they come back as not so nice dogs. Done the wrong way you can make what was a nice dog a potential liability. Most of the better Schutzhund trainers/competitors in this country and those I know in Europe want nothing to do with training a dog like this. A dog that has to be trained this way will never make a top level sport dog.

P.S. I really should add that used properly, by an experienced helper, this can be a good way to teach a dog the bark and hold in the blind.


by joanro on 07 April 2015 - 23:04

I'm fine thanks. No, I'm not confusing making the dog feel safe on the sleeve, as in for a weak nerved dog. I'm talking about teaching a dog to target the sleeve and not a body part of the helper. Like if a dog misses a blind and runs straight to the hot blind, helper drops the sleeve and steps out of the blind so the dog is not rewarded. But if a dog is not equipment oriented, and is actually coming for the man, dropping the sleeve and stepping out of the blind wouldn't be a good thing to do, that's not a 'safe' dog in this context. I'm sure you've seen dogs like that
I never heard anybody say, 'let's train this dog to be safe,' either. But the sleeve training is geared to wards making the dog 'safe' to work in protection. I was at a seminar a few years ago with a guy from Germany. I had my two year old male that I already put sch one on, run six blinds but he missed the fifth blind and the guy gave my dog a grip when he got to him....said no way would he drop the sleeve the way that dog came into the blind. I know my dog and knew he was safe.... but i wasnt the one the dog was targeting. Anyway, I've heard that from a couple different club guys, saying a dog is safe, focused on the sleeve, not the man.
My dog did run all six right after that and came in for a nice hold and bark.
So that's the context I was referring to, the sch dog is trained to bite the sleeve, not the man = safe. Otherwise, a dog like my male would just come in and bite the helper on his neck or shoulder. Maybe its a colloquial term, lol. Or maybe its only used around dinky clubs, without world competitors:-)

by Real Dog on 08 April 2015 - 02:04

Joan 

If an IPO dog is trained to bite prey  " off the sleeeve " , does it mean that he can be a  successful " real situation " dog, or are there other things that the dog has to bring to the table?


by Vericks family on 08 April 2015 - 03:04

Real Dog,
It sounds like you are dancing around what it is you really want to know. I get the feeling you are looking for info to use against Schh trained dogs? Just ask out right what you want to know......

by Haz on 08 April 2015 - 04:04

Having fun with an IPO trained prey monkey not long ago.  He is all prey, screams all the time, leaks drive etc.  The stereotypical sporty dog.  He happily bit the hidden sleeve when the decoy stimulated him and presented an arm.  I have decoyed him, when I slip the sleeve he carries it, I feel safe :).

 


Roboy

by Roboy on 08 April 2015 - 06:04

Like stated by someone-depends on the dog,and it's genetics,like strong nerves.Some dogs will focus on the man and some won't.Some High Prey dogs won't focus on the man,just he sleeve,threrefore I dont think a dog can be Trained to focus on the man if they don't have the genetic makeup to do it.And I've never heard of Training  a dog to be  "Safe On The Sleeve" or "Feeling Safe". Hectic dogs and also non hectic dogs are Calmed on the sleeve, hectic dogs  that  are Shaking the sleeve while they're on it or high pitch Whineing-Are signs of Insecurity. And you Calm  even non hectic dogs to keep  the stress level down   before channeling the dog into Defence.All dogs go through Mental Stress while on the sleeve and Calming them not ("Training To Be Safe") on he sleeve helps lower that stress before channeling them to defence as I stated.All three of my Sch dogs-Sch 1-Sch 3(now deceased and I've been out of the game for ten years) Loved the Sch game but  also were trained on the suit and would bite in Real Life situations.I wouldn't own a dog that wouldn't bite in Real Life situations.Sch's a Game(That I loved and enjoyed and also the dogs did) but Real Life isn't a Game.All three would've made  Dual Purpose Patrol Dogs.Guess I was Lucky.Regular Smile

 


by vk4gsd on 08 April 2015 - 07:04

what seems worse is the dogs that have never been shown that bitework is a game.

dogs that have been trained only in suspicion (usually started older) and are only ever agitated civilly, put straight on the suit/undercover sleeves etc with no prey moves by the decoy or no focus on left arm sleeve bites. bite work is typically less frequent and no real bite development per se is afforded the dog.

of  these dogs that have had the nerve and aggresion to survive how does one get them back into a game mentality without them exploding into max red-zone aggression at the site of a decoy?

these are most of the dogs i see, and i can say that a dog trained as a game and have had a proper bite foundation in prey and have had pressure built incrementally in prey are the better dogs, and are the more versatile dog that ultimately can transition into LEO and such to make a superior final product.

well that's my take on it.

 

thoughts?


by duke1965 on 08 April 2015 - 11:04

depends on the dog and has NOTHING to do with training

you can take a prey motivated dog and learn him that body or bodypart is prey, this is done for some time by trainers in germany, but it will allways be a trained behaviour that only will work when such dog recognizes the situation as trained situation

also quit a few dogs will show agression when sleeve is gone but whip is still present, but loose interest as soon as both sleeve and whip/stick  are gone

you cannot change genetic balance of drives of a dog by training,

IPO sport dogs are bred and selected to perform best at IPO sport, this is perfectly normal situation, you dont get pup or dog that shows all the wrong signs and try to fight your way up to get as high points as possible

there are however very good dogs in IPO that will have no problem at all to bite you for real without equipment

I remember a dog mentioned on here recently , Kylath v reiherwiese, he was used as example dog on a seminair of famous german trainer to show how they teach prey dogs to see the helpers body as prey, he was definately the wrong dog for this because he almost ripped him to pieces Thumbs Up






 


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