Distinguishing between " too much dog " , and bad temparament - Page 1

Thanks to evryone who clarified things about IPO versus real dog. I do have another question, and I would appreciate responses that are as scholarly as is possible, and based on rational arguments. My question is how do we distinguish between a dog that is well bred, but can be described as " too much dog ", and poorly bred dog that  may behave as such?

the difference between the two dogs is the handler/training.

vk..try to make a rational case

i think your question is genuine and meaningful but poorly constructed such that i do not really get it, i will defer this one to the experts and watch as a newb from the sidelines.

perhaps you could give specific examples of specific behaviours that you are talking about,  to my newb brain it seems a bit pie in the sky the way you have asked it.

do you have any concrete examples you could throw out there of what you are talking about?

"too much dog" means different things to different people, for some handlers too much dog is any dog that has any spark at all, for others there is no such thing as too much dog, i personally can not conceive of too much dog other than a linguistic expression.

ETA there are training issues and handler issues and some dogs are genetically suitable to some tasks and not others eg i would not send a gsd to a bull dogs task nor would i expect some k9 bodyguards to work as an airport detection dog. neither of which is any fault of the dog.

some handlers are mismatched for some dogs is another example, some dogs might be unstable and some handlers might be unstable.

is that what you are getting at??

hell i dunno.

Real Dog:

                  Your describing two glaring differences,in my opinion. To answer the first part, depends on the handler really too much for a novice may be just fine for an experienced handler. As to the 2nd part A poorly bred dog would give you signals immediately as to it,s temperament. I,m no scholar by any means.

vk4gsd; says it all. If I lived in my VW bug, a great dane would be '' too much dog''

Probably no difference. If the owner can't handle the dog, he/she will say this dog has a bad temperament. The breeder will say - temperament is correct for the breed; it's just too much dog for you.

I would define, very simply, a dog that has poor temperament is one that any combination of traits such as a high energy, low resistance to negative stimuli, weak nerves, poor trainability (lack of retention), inability to determine real threat versus common stimuli (so-called: "aggression), and either a high flight, or fight, drive in response to negative stimuli ("skittish" or "aggressive").

In such a case as a dog displaying those traits -- some, or God-forbid, all -- I would not say this is a dog suitable for Work or IPO sport. The nature of the dog is such that it is simply not stable nor clear-enough in the head to be a good candidate. Teaching such a specimen anything that involves biting on command would be a huge liability.

On the flip side, "too much dog" I see as a dog whose energy levels, intensity, ability to self-entertain (so-called "destructive behaviors"), and confidence (potentially "aggression") require a confident handler who is capable of meeting the dog's physical and intellectual needs, while maintaining control over the animal. Rapport and relationship with the handler is a big part of whether a dog is "too much" or not. 

"Too much dog" is a subjective, rather than objective assesment.

Example: If I hand one of my dogs, with whom I have a solid working rapport off to a novice handler, she will be "too much dog." My dog may or may not listen to a handler she doesn't know. I'd bet, given a novice handler, she'd probably try to get away with undesirable behaviors simply because she can. Depending on her mood that day, she might act a complete fool. "Too much dog."

However, if she were passed over to an experienced handler, the experienced handler would probably have little trouble in getting her to come to heel, literally. 

"Too much dog" is really a product of the handler or owner's ability to read the dog, meet it's needs, and focus it's behavior.

Here's another example of "too much dog":

I'm not the sort of person who would own a Malinois. Once upon a time I would've been. These days, I'm not able to be as active as I used to be. While I could keep a Mal mentally busy, and work off excessive energy via long runs on the dog-mill, a Malinois and I would not be a good handler-canine fit. Based on that, the Mal's requirements versus my limitations, owning a Malinois would be doable, but not  enjoyable. Thus, these days, a Malinois would be "too much dog" for me.

This is actually a good thread.

Looking at a dog now, extreme drives, very rank, very fast and very posessive.  He has bitten his handler while being choked off the ball sending him to hospital and made several attempts to get him afterwards.

The bloodline is known for handler aggression but also being very strong in the work.  Now I have to figure out:

1) Is his behavior the product of his handling (old school) and if so is he past the point of return

2) Can a relationship be built and training achieved or will his genetics and learned experience prevent a safe working relationship

All the drive and nerve strength in the world is useless if the dog cant be brought to a place were he is biddable enough to learn and work.

This is actually a good thread.

Looking at a dog now, extreme drives, very rank, very fast and very posessive.  He has bitten his handler while being choked off the ball sending him to hospital and made several attempts to get him afterwards.

The bloodline is known for handler aggression but also being very strong in the work.  Now I have to figure out:

1) Is his behavior the product of his handling (old school) and if so is he past the point of return

2) Can a relationship be built and training achieved or will his genetics and learned experience prevent a safe working relationship

All the drive and nerve strength in the world is useless if the dog cant be brought to a place were he is biddable enough to learn and work.