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by Hired Dog on 10 May 2015 - 14:05
Hexe, I love you, BUT, if I am walking my dog down the street, walking with my child down the street or even alone and a dog of medium or large size decides to charge us/me, with hostile intentions, I WILL shoot it and kill it.
I do not leave my house with the intention of getting hurt, I do not want to suffer lose of work, limb, injuries, time away from the gym where my true passion is or anything else, as a result of someone else's dog.
I know for sure that most people are not interested in learning to decipher the language of a dog, most could not anyway, plus, an attack happens so fast, you dont have time to decide, so, I choose to err on the side of MY caution instead of the dog's. This may sound cruel to "dog lovers", but, it makes perfect sense to someone who does not want to get hurt over someone else's screw ups.
by Blitzen on 10 May 2015 - 15:05
It doesn't sound cruel to me. I don't have a carry permit, but I do have pepper spray and a wiffle ball bat that I will not hesitate to use should a dog at large come after me or my dog one more time. I've had it with irresponsible dog owners who let their mutts run free and then want to cry foul if those dogs ended up getting hurt or worse. I've been bitten and received a serious knee injury keeping the same roaming lab off of my GSD and it's not going to ever happen again. Next time the dog will be disabled and treated like a football. I've warned his owner, our HOA president, and the local dog law officers.
Why should Leos be expected to analyse a dog's intentions when it is running at large and rushing him or her barking and snarling? Dog owners are responsible for keeping their dogs on their property, every county I know of has a leash law.
by hexe on 10 May 2015 - 20:05
Hired Dog, there is a significant difference between encountering a dog at large on the street, and you walking into MY yard and shooting my dogs because they are not tied or kenneled inside the yard--if I didn't invite you in, you shouldn't be IN my yard, and if you intend to come in uninvited, you damn well better give me the opportunity to put my dogs up before you enter.
Why should a LEO have to bother attempting to read a dog that is at large if it's coming toward them? Because part of the job is maintaining the public's trust, respect, support and appreciation for the members of LE, and shooting a dog that anyone who wasn't inherently flat-out scared of dogs in general could see was friendly even though it was barking, and posed no threat to the officer, destroys the public's trust, respect, support and admiration--it's easy enough to blame the dog's owner for letting the dog run at large, but not ALL dogs at large were PERMITTED to be thus...sometimes kids open gates and don't close them, or a piece of equipment fails, or a recently-adopted dog jumps through a window because it's terrified of storms and the new owner wasn't made aware of this. Accidents DO happen, but an officer shooting and killing a dog at large when the dog is not seriously threatening anyone's life is no accident--it's hubris. I know LE generally HATE to be compared to firefighters, but let's face it--if someone takes a job as a firefighter, they then have no business being so terrified of being hurt fighting a fire that they make bad decisions pre-preemptively: if my toaster catches fire and I call the fire department, I don't expect that they'll come in by hacking my doors down with axes or chainsaws, or that they're going to completely flood my house as their first action just so there's no chance anyone will have to go inside a burning house...
A moment's pause to assess a situation before reacting, to get a handle on what your next move is going to be, is generally a good idea, no matter who you are or what you're doing--be it encountering a loose dog, or figuring out how to best approach a 2000# bull who's confined in a pen that you need to get to move to another location when he's not interested in doing so. Not for nothing, but I've only been bitten twice in my life despite countless encounters with aggressive dogs at large on farms, or in cities and suburbs, and while handling patients in the veterinary practice--and both times it was by dogs I was working that I knew had a history and it's precisely why I was working with them...it helps to expect it to happen and already have your response to the event already planned out in your head. My worst animal attack was from a feral cat someone brought in to the clinic...would much rather be bitten by a dog that than clawed AND bitten by a cat.
To be honest, my friend, if your "true passion" is working out in the gym, then perhaps that's what you should be doing for your livelihood...there are professions where it doesn't matter if the person is passionate about their work, such as plumbing or waste management or auto mechanics,for example--and mind you, those professions are no less important to our lives than any other [imagine life in a world without competent plumbers!] while there are other fields where lack of passion for the work puts others at significant risk. Law enforcement, those in the medical profession, firefighters, those in the veterinary medical field, teachers, farmers--all of these jobs are best done by those for whom the work makes up a portion of the composition of their very blood. If you had that before, and have lost it, it might be time for a change. For me, I know the day it doesn't bother me to be involved in a euthanasia, or I get matter-of-fact about the conditions an animal is being kept in or how it's being handled or what disease is threatening the health of the livestock, that's when it's time for me to find another way to pay my bills.
Meanwhile, here in the US, two more officers were murdered last night, during a traffic stop in Mississippi, so two more families are shattered because three other people decided they weren't obligated to obey the same laws the rest of us are required to follow. Send a prayer or two for that community and those families, and for all of us while you're at it...because we need all the help we can get here.
by hexe on 10 May 2015 - 21:05
Blitzen, I have no argument with the use of NON-lethal force on at-large dogs one encounters...it's the default response of lethal methods that is occurring too frequently which I object to, and even more so when the dog is NOT at large, but is in its own yard or its own home. If I lived in a place where I did a lot of walking and there were also dogs-at-large on the regular, I'd carry more than a wiffle-ball bat, I'd carry a sturdy bite-stick. For that matter, even a simple umbrella can be a very effective deterrent in a pinch, and it's easy enough to carry one of the compact versions.
Along that line, here is a non-lethal deterrent device that's been upgraded from the basic umbrella concept, and is used by various public utility companies for their field personnel. Policewifey550, note also that this company offers bite-prevention training.
For the record, I don't think that the shooting and killing of a dog by a LEO is 'cruel', as I'm fairly sure they're good shots and effective at achieving what they intend--I think it's mostly unnecessary, and that lethal force should only be used as a LAST resort--not the default reaction, as it too often is for too many officers. "Waste precious time" using non-lethal methods and/or reading the dog and determining if the threat even exists? No, it's not a waste--that use of time is integral to law enforcement's ability to maintain the support and trust of the public they are meant to be protecting, which goes a long way in turn in protecting the officers themselves. How can that possibly be considered a waste of time, then?
The perspective of some officers of "shoot first, ask questions later"--whether it be dogs or people--has done harm to LE beyond all measurement, and if there isn't a huge change in outlook in that regard, things will continue to get worse, and officers will continue to be killed in the line of duty out of fear of civilians they encounter who believe the police present a threat to their lives.
Otherwise, we may eventually need to feature the ouroboros on the badges of LE...
...and the sad part is that it's the guilty few who are impacting the good majority.
by Blitzen on 10 May 2015 - 23:05
Sure it goes without saying that Leos should not shoot dogs that are not dangers to them or other people. I really doubt that good cops do that; those who do are in the minority as you have already said.
Hexe, to be brutally honest, if I had a carry permit, I wouldn't hesitate one second to use deadly force to stop an at large dog from attacking my dog or me. Bev has been attacked 12 times by the same 3 dogs and 4 times by 4 others with brain dead owners who scream - they only want to play. Not the dogs' faults, I agree, but if it comes down to preventing Bev from getting ripped up again or my getting bitten again, I would not hesitate to shoot to kill.
by hexe on 11 May 2015 - 00:05
Blitzen, I do understand your point, and this is going to piss you off, I'm sure, but...the first time this happened to you and Bev was completely out of your hands; after that experience, however, if it keeps happening again, you're also culpable to a small degree if you don't adequately arm yourself against that possibility.
by Hired Dog on 11 May 2015 - 00:05
Hexe, is your name derived from the Greek word for the number 6?
Getting back to the post, the Gym is a hobby, not a vocation, the dog thing is what pays the bills and will continue until I feel otherwise. Having said that, my feelings about using deadly force on a dog with hostile intentions towards my family, myself or my dog will remain the same. All of the above mentioned are worth far more to me then any dog who tries to harm us.
by bubbabooboo on 11 May 2015 - 01:05
Better hope some of these idiots on SWAT teams don't show up at your door .. give you 5 seconds to answer and open and then break down your door and come in guns blazing .. kill you or your dog and then say ooopps .. wrong house!!
From the time they knocked on the door until they broke it down the door 9 seconds. They then shot the dog and then killed the dog that was injured for crying. What a bunch of idiots and murdering cowards. If someone knocked on your door after dark would you open it in less than 9 seconds?? Unnecessary use of force and killed the dog .. do these idiots even know who they are arresting or is it that if a department has a SWAT team they are going to use it .. They did not give the occupants sufficient time to answer the door after dark and they did not have a no knock warrant. No scary looking people inside a suburban home .. just shoot first and get the facts straight after the dogs are dead. See the video link below .. chilling and makes me want to take away every SWAT team in the country if this is what they do.
Man shot 16 times in bed .. wrong man and not on the search warrant .. the other man was shot even though not on the warrant
Tired of SWAT teams illegally entering and shooting people and dogs .. sometimes at the wrong house .. these idiots read the warrant and check the address .. ever??
http://www.wnd.com/2012/08/cops-kill-dog-handcuff-kids-in-wrong-house-raid/#I9078KrubRgLi8B8.99
http://www.wnd.com/2012/08/cops-kill-dog-handcuff-kids-in-wrong-house-raid/
Illegal search for one hour in the wrong house after they had shot the family dog and detained the home occupants illegally .. they had no warrant but they searched anyway .. found a gun and tried to lie their way out of what they did ..
The complaint said in the St. Paul attack, officers handcuffed everyone in the home except a woman, who was forced, “virtually naked, from her bed onto the floor at gunpoint.” “Defendants shot and killed the family dog and forced the handcuffed children to sit next to the carcass of their dead pet and bloody pet for more than an hour while defendants continued to search the plaintiffs’ home,” according to the complaint. A young girl, who is diabetic, “was handcuffed at gunpoint and prevented by officer from obtaining and taking her medication, thus induced a diabetic episode as a result of low-blood sugar levels.” Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2012/08/cops-kill-dog-handcuff-kids-in-wrong-house-raid/#I9078KrubRgLi8B8.99
by bubbabooboo on 11 May 2015 - 01:05
A SWAT team on TV is portrayed as professional and intelligent .. apparently that is not the case in real life .. they can show up at your door because they do not know what they are doing ... police departments are using military equipment and tactics on citizens because they have a hammer and everything looks like a nail .. costs tons of money and when they make mistakes the death and destruction is terrible.
Two dogs killed and a family terrorized over a bong and marijuana "remnants". One of the dogs was running away. Not a dealer and no marijuana?? The judge gives a no knock warrant and the cops use that to cover what they did claiming they thought the man was dangerous since it was a no-knock warrant. The circular logic is that if the cops ask for a no-knock warrant the "suspect" must be dangerous and if the judge gives a no knock warrant the suspect is dangerous .. and the merry-go-round never stops.
http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/story/25981713/st-paul-police-shoot-kill-2-family-dogs-in-swat-raid
Boys with guns acting stupid .. don't give cops military grade equipment or they will use it on someone .. SWAT teams running and gunning with automatic weapons and armored vehicles .. killed a baby deer and needed a dozen to do it.
SWAT team kills dog over search for a suspected marajuana user who did not live there .. poor surveillance and no forethought
JUST FOLLOWING ORDERS IS NO DEFENSE .. WE HUNG A BUNCH OF NAZIS WHO USED THAT DEFENSE AFTER WWII.
by hexe on 11 May 2015 - 02:05
Hired Dog, no, it's the German word for 'witch', and the name of the GSD bitch puppy I brought home in the mid-90's right around the same time I was introduced to the listservs and the Interwebs in the mid-90's and needed a screen name, and I've used it ever since then.
Regarding the topic, all I can say is action begets action, attitude begets attitude, and in the long run, off-duty or on-, anyone in law enforcement who reacts to a situation in a manner which ultimately ends with the death of a person or animal that was not placing the life of the officer in immediate peril does nothing to improve the public impression of and sentiments for the profession...and that makes me very sad and disappointed, and fearful for the lives of my family and friends who are in that line of work as well. All I ask is that everyone in LE be mindful that their decisions, words and actions--both the good ones and the bad ones--create ripple effects that impact their fellow officers, and the public, both locally and across the country. Every report of another murdered officer ruins another promising day...
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