Anomaly outside of widely held belief about Defense Drive - Page 18

"why do you think that is?"

Could be because a GSD suffused with friendly Labrador characteristics, is more politically correct than a GSD with real GSD instincts ? Because a GSD with good GSD instincts, might actually display territoriality and protective behavior (shocking !), and that's a bad thing in the minds of these breeders, and probably even the buyers (who are then devastated that their Lab-in-GSD-clothing, whose every good instinct had been systematically eliminated via selective breeding, does not display any kind of GSD-like behavior when the situation warrants it) ?

Now why do YOU think that is, VK ?

"...that would be a utility dog with no excuses made for them."

 

that is your personal preference, mine to.

 

"Now why do YOU think that is, VK ?"

you sound too angry for me to continue to respond to.

Angry ? What makes you think so ? When we are making points respectfully, there's no reason for me (or anyone else) to be angry. Maybe you mistook the "you" being capitalized as angry (sorry about that !), but the question was an honest one.

OK  I'll break my silence - have been reading this thred since the start, with

a great deal of interest.  Snotty back-biting aside, some very relevent points

have been debated, my own views have been touched on and described

by other posters so there was no need for me to comment.  And I am always

shy of posting on in-depth theds on drives and working ability, since I do not

train bitework in any working or sport venue.

However I am in the fortunate position of being around BOTH Working dogs

and their people AND the UK Show scene, for years, so unlike many posters

have managed to see the GSD breed from both sides.  So I will add this into

the debate, now that it has centred on the comments of the last couple of

pages:

 

I do believe that IN SOME [perhaps too many] DOGS, the discernment ability

and the suspicion has been bred out of the GSD.  I don't entirely condemn the

'show/pet' breeding side for doing this - no Show Judge likes to be bitten while

doing their 'Individual' ;  and the world is now so full of potential pet owners

who 'must have' the GSD breed for its beauty and versatility, but they want a

couch potato which loves everybody and is safer around their kids, even though

they would also like a dog that barks at intruders, and they themselves do not

want to expend time and energy on any activities with the dog apart from throwing

a ball for it in the park.  Some here would defend that as their 'right';  me, I think

they should choose a different breed ...as I have posted many times !

 

I can say that of the two dogs wholly owned by me - as distinct from the wide

variety of Shepherds I've known / handled, through working with them, boarding

or house-sitting them; exercising them; helping individuals train them - were both

bred by the same Show kennel breeder.  She was reasonably successful but not

'top rank'/famous;  she was from a working background in that she'd competed

and judged Obedience to start with, and associated with Police and Security dogs

and handlers, and to the end still tried to breed 'all-round' dogs, so that some

went to Show & breeding homes, some to pet lovers, and still some to the Police

and security handlers, also Prisons etc. 

The first of my own dogs from her kennel, the bitch Vida, had been a successful

show dog.  When I took over it was because her hips score was awful and she

was not to be in the breeding program. (She did not display HD problems, and

lived to 14, but that's more relevent to other threds !),  I then did Obedience

with her.  I WOULD NOT HAVE TRAINED HER IN BITEWORK EVEN IF I'D

HAD ACCESS TO  A CLUB AT THAT TIME, as she was a 'flake' from the nerves

point of view.  There are reasons why this was a worse problem than it might

have been genetically which I won't go into detail here about;  but Vida

DID:  effectively guard my vehicle and my home; DID show some discern-

ment in who she bit or tried to bite, and in 'herding' round me to prevent

an approaching threat.  She had next-to-NO 'play' drive, but she did

possess 'prey' drive in spades when it came to cats and foxes and

squirrels.

My more recent dog  with the passage of time was not as closely

related to the "Four Pillars" as he came from more modern bloodlines,

he was VERY Uran line-bred.  He had excellent hips.  He wanted to

be fussed by just about anybody, stranger or not.  He had extreme

'play drive' for a ball, though that was his preference above all other

retrievable objects, and would seek his ball in grass and brambles

for hours if allowed to continue looking for it unaided.  He never

guarded the car;  but he did alert at home.  Frankly I would have

expected him to make a reasonable fist of IPO if we'd had the chance

to train in that, but he only got to do basic Ob and some Tracking with

me.  He would NOT have made a Show dog, despite his softer temperament 

- he threw up on the judges feet the first time I entered him at a Companion

Show !  I took him to one more (where he stood alone), and he did not want

to be there either - clearly considered it boring, despite having the judge to

himself, and could not wait to leave.  So much for a Showline bred black&red !

 

Think what I'm trying to illustrate is that I feel dogs may be bred in certain directions

depending on the breeders proclivities and the state of the market;  but they are

still individuals for all that.   And therefore a bit of a crap-shoot, dependent on

their owners / handlers abilities and preferences and training skills to realise

their potential in any direction.

amazing that the topic is filled with opinions from people who dont work dogs for real work, dont breed dogs,or dont work dogs at all, all we miss is opinion of someone who dont have dogs at al

Hm, quote, 'l do believe that IN SOME [perhaps too many] DOGS, the discernment ability

and the suspicion has been bred out of the GSD.  I don't entirely condemn the

'show/pet' breeding side for doing this - no Show Judge likes to be bitten while

doing their 'Individual' .'

If the dog has a sound temperament it won't bite the judge. The dogs being excused from the ring for biting are certainly not of sound temperament. Further, there is more to a sound gsd than bite work.

Humans learn by asking questions and have a mental idea on a subject from whence his questions come, so there would be no need for universities if all the students only qualify to participate if they are first fully involved in the subject in the physical relm. 

Owning a dog first before ANY knowledge on the subject is usually a bad ride for both dog and owner, but maiinly for the dog.

Nans, Jenni, Hexe, Blitzen... still to weigh in on this thread.
hntr vs Gee
vk vs Aaakay

Whats next?

Re. suspicion... the dog in my sig was VERY protective of the car. If you even bumped against it in the parking lot, you had a very upset dog on the other side of the window! She caused more than one person to nearly pee their drawers in her 14 1/2 years on this planet!

I would sometimes take her on my home care nursing rounds with me, especially if it was after dark.

One day, as I examined my patient, it became very obvious that he needed to make a trip to the hospital. The family called for an ambulance, and I then realized I needed to move my car out of the driveway to allow the ambulance parking room.

"I'll do it for you," the man's son volunteered.

Forgetting the dog (Tasha)was in the car, I handed over my keys.

Suddenly, I remembered about the dog, and went tearing down the hall, fearing the worst.

The man was already inside the car, and putting it into gear. [wipes brow!] and Tasha was perfectly fine with him being in the car. He later told me he was used to large dogs, and she must have sensed his confidence. A car thief would have been anxious/fearful.

Of all the dogs I've owned, she had the truest GSD temperament. Discernment, protectiveness, intelligence...she had it all!

Where did she come from? Well, my room-mate found her wandering the streets of Scarborough. Someone dumped her, possibly because she wasn't good with kids! It was her one bad flaw. She never seriously hurt one...her bites were just warning nips...but still, we had to be very, very careful with her when children were around.

Sometimes pedigrees don't mean a lot.