Anomaly outside of widely held belief about Defense Drive - Page 4

I personally would take a dog that has higher thresholds that stays in prey longer allllllll day than a dog that is quick to go into defense(stress).
I would never want a dog that had no prey, that you had to stress out to get it to engage, not my cup of tea.
As I have said before, a dog doesn't need to be angry to bite. Your extreme and intense defense monsters are biting because they are scared and want the fight to end.

Duke, the whitehouse dog broke down because it was a crap dog, not because he was out of his element. Dog about blew his anals from a kick in the head and completely checked out.
I guess you could say he was taken out of his element so quickly because he was a crap dog. Doesn't matter if it was a KNPV PH1 dog or not.

 

And how do you know it wasn,t a recall there are many discussions about this dog what I have
read on the working-dog forum and people who have trained with this dog it was a recall.

 

Because the dog got kicked in the head and ran away.
I highly doubt the timing for the dog instantly running away could be timed with the handler recalling the dog as soon as he got kicked.
Watch the video, the dogs reaction to run away was INSTANTANEOUS to being kicked.
If you get the time, please send the link for that discussion, as I would be curious to see who "trains" with them. I would just about guarantee they don't train with a civilian club, and doubt the real trainers in that group would be contributing on a nonsense post.
But on the other hand if they really did train with the group, I could see them lying about it out of embarrassment.

 

 

 

You can find the discussion on working-dog forum 1 year ago  there are many

 

 

 

 

definately no recall, bad exuse, it was a dog that was tested and purchased minimal 3 times and passed all the prey-bite and stay in the fight crap, only they forgot to test the : " Get into any fight "

Duke nailed right here...nothing else needs to be said, it'll just be trying to say something duke already did but in different word order....

Quote from duke:
'it is all about what is there to begin with in a dog, caracter of dog is like pizza, one word/item, but build up from many ingredients and different in every individual dog/pizza, even when you buy ten pizza margharita they will all be different in buildup, same as you buy ten GSD , they will all have different buildup in caracter

now every dogs caracter is build up with ingredients, hunt,prey,possesiveness,dominance,courage,suspicion,agression,defence etc

all these ingredients and levels thereof are there by genetics and can be shaped by training, socializing etc, but we have to realize we cannot shape what is not there, so we cannot create dominance, agression,suspicion etc if it is not there to begin with

now the situation is that if a dog has more defence, low prey, but good courage and dominance you will have good dog,

if you have mainly preydriven dog with low courage and agression that is shaped well, it will look good in safe(read trained) situations, but the tog will break down in untrained situation, unknown pressure

now if malinoisbreeder says that dogs that operate mainly in defence are weak he has a point FOR HIS BREED, because IN GENERAL malinois have thinner nerves than GSD,and breeds like Bouvier, Rottweiler, Caucasian etc, these are breeds that mostly do not function over preydrive, but over defenfe,agression, this is also reason why all these breeds ore labeled not good for sport these days, because todays sport is prey oriented, in old days the sport was not and you could see many other breeds functioning well in different sports like KNPV and IPO.'

A dog who consistently engages in stressful situations, no matter which drive they are in - for me equates to a good reliable dog.

Conversely, a dog with super prey or extreme defense, who does not CONSISTENTLY engage - for me is not a good dog.

hntrjmpr434 - said

"I would never want a dog that had no prey, that you had to stress out to get it to engage, not my cup of tea" (hopefully not overly likely with the herders, re no prey).
"As I have said before, a dog doesn't need to be angry to bite" (very true)
"Your extreme and intense defense monsters are biting because they are scared and want the fight to end".
If being scared means the dog ALWAYS engages, protects your butt, and wins the fight then it really doesn't matter.

However I would also say that - it's an over simplification to deem a dog is in defense, when in fact some do have another gear - Fight.

A dog with a very high fight drive, lives for the fight, I know my dog does.

Regards
Gee.

"If being scared means the dog ALWAYS engages, protects your butt, and wins the fight then it really doesn't matter."
It doesn't matter? I sure as hell think it does. Why would you want a dog thats scared in the fight when you could have a dog that isn't? A dog thats fighting because its scared and wants the fight to end is not a very complete or desirable dog to me.
Fight and defense are separate, one can be present/absent/higher/lower from the other.
If I remember correctly, your dog didn't have a lot of fight, and was working in prey when you were telling everyone he was in defense.

The problem with breeding working dogs, pretty much has to do with people breaking down behaviors as some sort of "automatic" device...

A well bred animal that comes down from a line of good natural sharpness, driven animals that exude confidence is what should be required... How this dog performs under pressure is irrelevant, as long as it keeps pushing through.

The training and exposure the dog underwent will also dictate its nerve strength... If a dog's prevalent state of mind is worked properly, the animal will always stay there when pressure is applied... If he is used to pressure, while on that state of mind and given proper strength... the animal will be strong.

The issue comes when we look at all these people, not being able to read the dog's prevalent state of mind and determining nerve strength from that.

There's more than one way to skin a rabbit. If a dog works and pushes through, after being pressured... Why should I care if he is showing defense or prey? I want the job done.

My preference is for good natural sharpness, high drives and confidence... It's a dog you can develop, using different states of mind.


Regards.