Anomaly outside of widely held belief about Defense Drive - Page 6

Bubba
My whole point is that there is a overly simplistic understanding in our working dog community that a dog primarily operating out of defense is necessarily a weak dog, because defense is triggered by fear; put enough pressure on such a dog and he will flee. This was also asserted to me by a well respected KNPV Line Malinois breeder in the USA. I recently came across a dog whose behavior was an anomaly that the simplistic but widely held perspective.
Many persons on this thread like Duke and Aaakay have made it clear that a highly defensive dog can have very strong fight, and and it does not simply follow the simplistic trajectory suggested by persons like hntr ( and the Mal breeder I spoke to, and Im sure many others ).
I was concluding kind of sarcastically that should hntr come out here to test Primo ( the Cane Corso ) , she would be accepting the null hypothesis from a hospital bed.

 

Haven't heard view points from the regulars: Blitzen, Hexe, Jenni, Nans, Susie,Qman, Mackenzie....

 

I,m curious why some people have the idea the more defense dogs are weak or have bad nerves

Have seen many serious defense dogs with courage and  good nerves some of them I will choose above the high prey drives
you will be sure you can walk safety in a bad neighborhood in the dark.

I have the idea this people read this dogs wrong or don,t know where they talking about same that well respected KNPV breeder.in the US.

Some people can,t read dog behavior  is the dog  bite  for   fear  or serious and real defense  this are 2 different things.

 

 

Mithuna, curious who the well known breeder is?

What do you want to hear, Mithuna? Duke already answered your question on page 1 ( I like the Pizza comparison ).
Personally I prefer civil over prey ( defense it not the correct word ), but for today´s police a prey driven dog with a good fight drive ( let´s call it positive defense ) in the ratio 70:30 is fine. Most of them are dual purpose dogs nowadays, so they need prey not only for following a fleeing guy but also for drug detection or something else. Without prey most of them are good for single purpose only, and most dogs without any prey drive don´t see a reason in distance work...
I´m more interested in PP ( although my dogs participated in SchH/IPO, too ), I don´t need much prey in a dog, ( maybe 30:70 ), but a lot of territorial behavior and aloofness, combined with stable nerves, but again, that´s only me.
A strong dog will fight, a weak dog will flee, and at one point all of them will flee, no matter about the drive ( not talking about proper training right now, it´s essential ).
One thing is for sure, a dog able to switch between prey and positive defense is the most versatile dog.

hntrjmpr434: "Never said the dog wouldn't bite, Mithuna. He's just scared doing so. Defense is a stress response, no matter the breed."

I guess you are incorrectly referring to fear-biters (arising out of weak nerves), when referring to dogs with a dominant defense drive.

The others here on the other hand, are talking about good/bold, dominant defense/fight driven dogs with solid nerves, that just genetically bring real intensity to the engagement, and actually enjoy the fight, with a driving desire to dominate the opponent.....the polar opposite of acting "scared".

No, aaykay.

This is correct, aka.;
'The others here on the other hand, are talking about good/bold, dominant defense/fight driven dogs with solid nerves, that just genetically bring real intensity to the engagement, and actually enjoy the fight, with a driving desire to dominate the opponent.....the polar opposite of acting "scared".'

My whole point is that there is a overly simplistic understanding in our working dog community that a dog primarily operating out of defense is necessarily a weak dog, ...

since you are not part of the/any working dog community, never have and never will be, your utter ignorance may be tolerated. just remember not to speak for others unless asked.

I am in agreement with the others too.....what I dont agree with is the simplistic notion espoused by many that a dog acting very defensively is neceasarily doing so out of fear and simply by raising the pressure the dog will simply retreat. The dog I saw did  not retreat at any time from the decoy; on the contrary he fought with heart.The breeder I dont know but the owner is a NYCDOE  public school teacher. 

And NO I was not referring to any weak nerved defensive dog.

Susie - good post.

hntrjmpr434 - with all due respect your reading of a dogs body language is way off the mark. A dog which is scared will NOT be at the end of his chain - always pushing forward hanging on to a leg whilst his senses are being seriously compromised..

Have you ever assessed a dog for suitability re Civil type training? (looking at your theories I would guess not)

The reason I ask that question is because, a simple test which involves merely tying the dog back in a neutral location,with it's handler out of sight, and the civil tester merely walking in a straight line slowly towards the dog, giving it only eye contact.(no physical contact/surprises)
Unfortunately will send the vast MAJORITY of dogs of all breeds into TOTAL avoidance. Including - turning it's back on the situation/urinating/shaking uncontrollably / and struggling so violently to get away it's causes it's self injury.

. There are no half way houses when it cit comes to back bone, I have seen too many dogs with none.

Regards
Gee