Thoughts on Limited Registration - Page 13

Pedigree Database

Premium classified

This is a placeholder text
Group text

Premium classified

This is a placeholder text
Group text

Premium classified

This is a placeholder text
Group text

Premium classified

This is a placeholder text
Group text

Gigante

by Gigante on 15 January 2016 - 17:01

Why is everyone going to prison thats funny, I think thats the second or third time its been mentioned..... I think with signed completed contract and stipulations met akc lifts. I know of at least two instance when it has been done, I dont think its in a policy format, but its been done should your breeder rob a bank and go to prison or disappear off the rock. There would be no legal reason for them not too that I can think of. But in the rare rare case I think it would work out for the purchaser.

by joanro on 15 January 2016 - 17:01

It's fun to say gsd breeders are going to prison....god knows there are plenty who deserve to.

"I think with signed completed contract and stipulations met akc lifts."

Dude, you think akc actually LOOKS at your contract between breeder and buyer and 'lifts' the limited when the contract is fulfilled? No, they do not get involved in legal matters, like can't find breeder, breeder in jail, etc etc. If the breeder died, it would be pretty complicated to get anything done. Executor of the deceased's estate has to notify akc, proof by way of lawyer of death and executor power, then exec. must put reg in their own name to get limited removed, then sign the newly issued reg papers back into the real owner's name. It takes a lot of money, time, and aggravation....that is if the executor of the estate even agrees to cooperate.
Shows how convoluted and wrong limited reg is being used for marketing....I have talked to several 'breeders' who will accept a few hundred more bucks to allow 'full' reg to accompany the pup. Has to do with money, marketing, and competition control.


Gigante

by Gigante on 15 January 2016 - 17:01

As pointed out the extreme is not the norm, come oooooooonnnnnnnnnn. Its no argument.

Again with the extreme its not daily business but it would be proof of the breeders consent to lift all thats needed.... They would have no reason not to once submitted.

Its a revenue source new paperwork, new litter. new regs and possible process begins again.Money money money.. The argument is unsound, now quiet or we send you prison for contempt of court.

by joanro on 15 January 2016 - 17:01

I OBJECT! Your lackofhonor! The argument *is* sound!

I *know*, I saw it on facebrook!

Gigante

by Gigante on 15 January 2016 - 18:01

bhahahahhahahahahaa

by Bavarian Wagon on 15 January 2016 - 18:01

joanro, please provide a real example of when something like that has occurred. I've actually heard completely the opposite about the AKC and what they're willing to look at and when they are willing to grant registration rights. I know of someone's personal experience when due to questions about ownership of a stud dog, a person was unwilling to sign off on litter paperwork, and yet after DNA and paper contracts were submitted, the AKC allowed the litter to be registered without the signature of the sire's owner. The AKC, just like the US justice system, tends to side with the "little guy" in most situations and truthfully doesn't care to be involved in court cases so it's just easier to grant someone the registration and move on with life. They're not really in the business of policing breeding (as has been stated).

With enough documentation they'll grant most things because it's easy to see who's on the "right side." If the breeder wants to sue (which they won't) the AKC because they did something against their will, they can provide them with the contract and tell them that all they were doing was executing a contract, and the reasoning that a breeder might have to deny someone the full registration when they have met all the requirements are more than likely petty, personal things that would never hold up in a court of law...but the chances of dog stuff reaching that level is very slim as the cost to go to court is generally way too high for the parties involved to swallow.

DenWolf

by DenWolf on 15 January 2016 - 19:01

Some good questions and comments, finally, which I can answer from personal experience.

 

"Limited", for USA, is about the closest thing to EMULATING a European system for QUALITY CONTROL without actually losing the freedom to retain BREEDER CONTROL over a USA born/registered litter.

Yes, there are things that cannot be done the same as say, SV, naturally, because USA isn't Germany, and Americans want to be FREE to do what they please, as seen by the 12 pages of this thread.

However, most all of the scenarios presented have a viable SOLUTION and there are very effective ways to circumvent potential issues.

 

I will try to explain using very simple terminology.   "YOU" is not directed at any one person, but to ALL who read this thread.

 

1. "I bought it, its MINE MINE MINE, I wanna do what I want, no 'strings??' waa waa waa...... "

SERIOUSLY??  If you BUY a puppy, it is YOURS....  you OWN it, you GET its pedigree and papers, you can do almost ANYTHING you want with it...  EXCEPT show it in dog shows AND register litters from it UNTIL breeder says I WILL CHANGE limited to full.

How limited is allowed to be changed to FULL is NOT controlled by any entity except the BREEDER of that dog.

 

As to "strings"....   So what in your real life DOESN'T have "strings"???? You can BUY a giant truck with double-dualie-wheels, and keep it in your yard, BUT you don't get to DRIVE it on roads UNLESS you obtain a LISCENSE (education) pay TAX (tag/stickers) AND have INSURANCE (responsibilty/liability) so that your potential poor actions/decisions are covered (driving drunk, reckless, etc). You don't BUY the RIGHT to drive that vehicle, you EARN it.

These laws came about because PEOPLE didn't CARE to do things right, so then it became a LAW, of which the consequence of breaking could include the loss of your VEHICLE and even jail time.

You "buy" your home/property, and you OWN it, right??  But wait,  if you don't pay the taxes, guess what??  If you don't follow zoning rules, guess what??

 

2. "I cant find the breeder, the breeder is just plain rotten and evil, the breeder robbed a 7-11 last month and went to jail, the breeder drove their mini-van off a cliff after Thelma and Louise....."  (et al ad naseaum)

IF you have a VERY CLEARLY spelled out contract and it contains the proper legal terminology, AND you complete the requirements which were AGREED UPON by both parties, IN WRITING and you have the proof, AKC WILL honor the contract!   YES, they did!!  I was surprised, because I also thought they did NOT get involved, but THEY DID and absolutely used MY WRITTEN CONTRACT to settle a dispute involving THEM!!  So in the REALLY extreme case where you think something awful will happen, you can take the initiative to MAKE such a contract, OR, just don't deal with THAT BREEDER. Please don't lump ALL of us into ONE category.

 

3. "WEEEEELLLLLL, I can just circumvent your stupid limited by going UKC or CKC....hahahahaha..."   (actually said to me by someone I used to be friends with)

WEEEEEELLLLLL, yeah, and I can actually register ALL of my litters/puppies with AKC AND UKC FIRST and waaa waaa, so sad, too bad. No circumventing.

CKC ( continental) is a make-believe registry, and no one who has a brain and is involved in dogs takes it seriously, so I don't count that one.

 

4. "I 'screen' my buyers, and I am magic, have a crystal ball, and am SO perfect, I can just SMELL liars, and  I am also teflon"

That's wonderful. I screen my buyers too. I am NOT magic, certainly not teflon, and have been fooled by scammy lying sacks of dirt. I am not afraid to admit to this, and I am extremely grateful for the support of the entire dog community which has HELPED me clean up these occasional messes.    IT happens.....  examples to follow.

 

I am attaching two links...  for your consideration...  these two links are pretty much what I believe is the biggest problem facing the future of free dog breeding in this country...  and what the original purpose of limited was about.

 

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=738009-scooby-doobie-doo-matheney&p=long-generation&d=7

SEVEN generation pedigree ...  ALL have AKC full papers, many of them bred several times. Track each dog back...  eventually, you'll find 'some' good dog and the smoking gun from whence all of these offspring sprung. I haven't the time nor the desire to search out each one, but seriously doubt ANY of these animals were screened for ANY health problems or are in ANY databases.  How many filled up rescues and shelters??

 

 

http://www.sheprescue.org/15%20adoptions%2047.html

Here is another link for your consideration. There are PAGES and PAGES of "other peoples messes" that this single rescue cleaned up. There are a few really nice looking animals, and a HUGE majority of REALLY poorly bred dogs and mixes too, all of which came from SOMEWHERE. And these are the ones they SAVED. If you want to know what breed faults look like, scan over the hundreds of photos. From there, think about good temperaments and nerve...  and the percentage that didn't have either.

 

 

Limited is not a 'bad' thing, it is not meant to be used to generate revenue or screw people, its a WONDERFUL tool to keep the masses of clueless ignorant from PROFITING HANDSOMELY without following some sort of minimal quality control.

Sure, they can and might still breed, BUT... they will NOT flourish. It costs the same to breed good healthy animals as it does to breed bad ones. Fortunately, a great deal of value is placed on AKC papers in this country.

 

PLEASE don't sell EVERYTHING you breed on full "just because".

PLEASE don't lump all of us caring and good breeders that care in the same category as the ignorant fools who use this tool only to make profit.

PLEASE rephrase your stand on the issue to have exception, and not exclusion.

 

At the end of the day, you are either part of the problem or part of the solution. If you want to retain the right to keep intact animals and be free to breed them in this country, start policing your own. Educate the ignorant, walk away from the stupid, DONT enable them....

I have made a difference, and you can too.

 

 

 

 

 

 


by joanro on 15 January 2016 - 19:01

A friend had to go through the executor when the breeder of their dog died, to get papers squared. A lot of hoops.
Another situation where the owner of a dog that sired a litter...the person misrepresented the female bred to said dog, they didn't even own her and would not give name of owner. These were supposed 'friends'. Would not pay stud fee, so stud owner had akc redflag the litter so the litter could not be registered. The akc said they don't get involved in legal disputes and that's all they could do.

by joanro on 15 January 2016 - 19:01

You do it your way, justified by sarcasm, the rest of the world will also do it their chosen way....without sarcasm. :-) People who want to breed for quick money at the expense and without regard for the dogs, don't need full reg akc to pull it off. Seems that some of the proponents for limited reg have some nasty temperaments. Just an observation from this thred.

by Bavarian Wagon on 15 January 2016 - 20:01

Joanro, sounds like the friend that went to the executor went the hard way first, probably could've done it through AKC, you probably got the really complicated story so that someone could complain about the evil AKC instead of contacting the right people and having it done much easier.

The other situation...a puppy buyer from that litter could've gotten registration. The breeders themselves are in a fit, AKC has no reason to get involved, but a puppy buyer, if sold a dog on a contract that says who the dogs are and DNA is on file or there is enough proof that the puppy is from those two dogs, would've been able to get the paperwork from the AKC. Maybe your "friends" need to learn to screen their friends better. Clearly when someone misrepresents dog ownership to someone...they're not that close. Too bad you weren't there with your screening skills to help them out.

Serious question for you Joanro, do you really believe a breeder can make that quick of a buck without papers? Like enough money to make the breeding worth it again? How much do you think a puppy without papers goes for?

Id also like to see where you see anyone "getting nasty" other than the little spat between you and gig. I haven't seen anything horrible over the last 4 pages from either side except for you just now saying anyone not on your side about registration is nasty.






 


Contact information  Disclaimer  Privacy Statement  Copyright Information  Terms of Service  Cookie policy  ↑ Back to top