Pick your brains... 6 month old won't go after "dead" prey - Page 2

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=682728-enyo-vom-grafental

Sire

Had the dams name, will have to go back through records to retrieve it. 

That's encouraging. Fingers crossed... 

Through Lord, though, I've seen the opposite. 4 of mine are descendants  (yes, all of the other dogs come into play I know)

Bringing the ball back from a retrieve. She would hardly do this at 8 months.

Okay, you say she's deaf if another dog enters the picture, but...for what it's worth, this is my experience with my GSL/ASL female. She's always loved her toys, would hog them from the other dogs, and even sleep with them in her mouth, but showed very little interest in retrieving the dumbbell. I was told to force her to take it into her mouth. That decreased her interest even further!

Then a little black pup that LOVED the dumbbell came into the picture...   (You just might know who she was...) And COMPETITION reared its head!

Suddenly, the dumbbell was EXTREMELY interesting to her!

Just a thought, FWIW.

HI .... You write : " if it comes from my hand directly she won't take it . people look for answers that are boiler plate and technique based. I have written repeatedly that everything stems from the genetics of the dog and our relationship. Always we discuss the dog.. And that is only 1/2 the equation. So IMO i don't train methodology .. So , i would ask : "WHY". That is the key WHY?? we know that behavior is 50%genetic & 50 % learned/environment. Our relationship being a big part of that. So who and what is your dog and what can be your role to bring about desired behavior ?
I have seen some dogs that do not take items from one's hand. Perhaps the need to posses within the dog is low .. but it may not be as low as you think . Again ask , why does she not take it from your hand ? One reason is , RANK status playing a role. Some dogs are very respectful of the owner , some dogs need /look for permission to take something either stemming from temperament/genetic or from a intentional or unintentional past learning. [ Also depending on how you related to the dog chasing chickens affects your relationship with her. If one screams , hollars , threatens even unintentionally to stop the dog... this all affects how the dogs looks at you . Sometimes the best thing to do is keep yourself out of the picture initially , not say a word /don't reprimand ,and don't get physical - throw an electronic collar on the dog and create in the dogs mind the chickens responded . Keeps you in a good light , doesn't damage your relationship with the dog and gives the dog a reason to leave game alone. ]
You see my point , we have to know the dog and how we each relate. Hard for me to talk in exactitude as I can't see you or your dog. I post here to help you think.Not working the dog is not the answer , just wasted time .
There is a difference in having dominion over our dogs verses verbally /physically dominating it. Domination is another reason relating to rank a dog won't take something.
I write just one or two reason for the dog not taking , this may or may not apply to you . But if this is a contributing factor stopping taking an item as in this example , don't take items from the dog and create a REASON for the dog to want to take something from you ! When the WHY is answered and when we understand the reasons the dog does not take or posses we go to the next question :
"WHAT do we do in order to have the dog want to take / posses something ". How do we change the dog's mind such that it looks upon taking and possessing an item to it's advantage. Again , each dog is different and the answer has to be tapered slightly different.
So , for example , I would ask the dog when it hasn't eaten all day long .. would you take a sopping meaty , bloody marrow bone. I might try handing it to the dog with clam encouragement, letting it know that he has permission to take it. If he takes the bone , then i repeat this scenario over and over to condition the dog to "take ". Afterwards , I would go into the 'Generalization Phase of the 'take from me ' behavior. I rub the meat dripping bloody bone or marrow onto a ball or some object . See if the dog will take it. Next step... condition the dog over and over to take the ball . ...
Now I want to teach the dog to keep something. Maybe I go back to the bone but with a rope tied onto it. As the dog takes the bone, [or maybe a ball on a rope] I exert light , light pulling pressure away so the dog must reflexively grip the bone/ball . Progressing in steps , I now add a bit more pressure in order to condition the dog to keep what it has. And if the dog drops it I pull it away , tease the dog , tease , taunt the dog . That will frustrate the dog to want to keep what it has. Even if I am running with a ball on a rope and the dog lets go , I tease and taunt the dog to make him realize the he lost it and now I have it and it is not easy for him to get it back if he wants it. Once i see the dog keeping , holding the next phase would be : as he grips and hold i start to slowly, lightly move/run to teach the dog to hold in motion. Last advice here : now i also in doing all of this attend to my relationship with my dog. in body posture , i use of voice i don't dominate the dog yet i give him assurance within each step that he is behaving acceptable . that is to say you , yourself can be a positive reinforcer. Let him know that it is ok to behave by taking , gripping , holding in light run. The most IMPORTANT feature of this is that you are an integral part of the dog , your interaction - having fun and the dog is feels safe secure , etc etc. .
Interacting ,[ not training] , teaching , asking the questions about your dog ,: you will surprised what you both accomplish . Everyone talks about the dog... this is faulty... Everything is about YOU and the dog.
Dogs have the capacity to learn , understand your dog , step back and contemplate. PS.. doing nothing ... teaches the dog nothing and solves nothing... just have fun and enjoyment.

Nope, tried ball with a 2nd dog. She fixated on the other dog and could care less about the ball. Nero, as sweet and nice as he is, can't be bothered by a Young pup being obsessively obnoxious.

I've played ball with the other dogs near her, in the hopes of good old learning by osmosis trick. Nada, bark her fool head off over the movement of the other dogs. Could care less about the ball.

I've been spoiled by how easy my own, home bred dogs have been, I guess.

The only thing I haven't tried it hot dogs. I loathe carrying around bits of slimy hot dogs, yuck. Plus theyre really not goid for you. Watch, that will be her go to training treat. Blech.

Melissa

I have a 10 month old Czech/DDR line female who sounds almost identical to your pup. I was just about ready to give up on her ever learning/wanting to play tug or retrieve a ball or play with any toy for that matter. She'd chase if thrown but then lose interest as soon as it stopped moving and would come back to me to play with me without the toy, or, if she kept the toy, she'd just take it and lay down and chew on it. If I put her on a long line to encourage her to bring it back, she would chase until it stopped and then come bounding back without it, and if she did happen to pick it up, and I tried to get her to bring it back with the long line, she'd drop it and come back to see what I wanted. Never had such an uninterested GSD before; all the others have been ball/tug fiends from the beginning. I tried using the other dogs to show her how to play and make her want to get and bring things, but she positively refused until just here in the last couple of days she is starting to show Very slight interest. Unlike your girl, mine is highly food motivated, so I got one of the tug toys you can stuff with food and started from there and have just gradually built on it until tonight I was having she and my 2.5 year old female take turns bringing the ball back to me. I don't repeat nearly as often as my older girl would like because I don't want the pup to lose interest, but we are getting there, so I'd say don't give up hope, it might just come with age. Finished the play session tonight by getting my younger girl to bring the ball all the way back to the house with us, which she did. You'd have thought she'd just earned her SCHH III the way I praised her for that, for her, amazing accomplishment, lol.

Centurian,
You are absolutely right. I need to figure out how to better communicate with her and why what I'm doing isn't working with this one.

It seems as if, to me at least, that she does not wish to possess the rag is because she would rather chase it. Dog accidently drops prey (rag) and next time they have to work harder to catch it. To me, it seems like her enjoyment comes with the chase. Now, how to change her mind, that in reality, she wants to keep it.

I will try with bloody raw things. Think I might have a deer bone still in the freezer.

Thank you all. I have a lot to think about.

Melissa

One of my 6 month old pups (not from my breeding) has zero interest in either a. Keeping the rag/tug/ball or b. Bringing ball back. If it comes from my hands directly, she won't take it. She'll chase on the flirt pole all day long, but once she has it, she drops and moves on to something else. Basically, if it's not moving, she doesn't want it. 

She is ho hum about food also, despite feeding time, value, withholding meals and only feeding from the hand. 

Pedigree is 90% old DDR if that makes a difference. I know they can be different, late maturing etc etc. 

Adding, she would hunt and kill chickens and cats until she dropped if she were allowed. Obsessively. Hard time breaking that and bringing focus back to myself.
 

 

I own this dog. She did start fetching after 12 months, but not before then. (She's 5.5 now.) She also will work for food now. But I she works as well or better for praise. And I think she likes the food because it's been heavily linked to praise and is an indicator of me being happy with her. Just let your pup grow up, continue with small/short training sessions, and keep praising the behavior you like.

She's related to your dog through Quecke. 

 

Also, in my experience, I could put very, very good control on the behavior around "prey" animals (cats, chickens, goats, sheep) but I could not (have not) extinguished the behavior. No way to countercondition or make it go away that I have found. Control helps, though. It will probably get stronger as she matures.

 

Christine

Who is your dog's mom?

Also, a couple other thoughts:

Use a flirt pole to build prey/chase drive and to keep a "dead" toy alive by making it move after she gets it and drops it--you could even, probably use this as an obedience reward. Make a small one for training and a bigger one for the drive building stages.

Can you work her in areas away from the chickens/cats? Also, take her off property away from the cats/chickens for drivework and training sessions.

Christine

I had a labradoodle that used to come in to the kennel for 'daycare' twice a week. I was supposed to get the dog tired out so he would be a better pet in a household where both adults worked, and the wife wasn't able to walk the dog because he had horrible leash manners (I soon fixed that...)

He wouldn't play ball. He wouldn't play with my shepherds. I was at my wit's end! How the heck was I supposed to get this dog tired out? For a while, I had to leash him to my waist while I did chores around the property!

Anyway, I kept trying to get him to play with my own dogs, who loved to chase the ball. It took about 3 months with him mostly watching, before he felt comfortable enough to chase the ball. Even then, he wouldn't take the ball if one of the other dogs was closer to it. If I played ball with him on his own, though, he'd catch it and bring it back.

Totally different kind of dog, I know, and he was quite submissive with my shepherds.