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by Reliya on 14 April 2016 - 07:04
Melba, I PM'd you.
by Centurian on 14 April 2016 - 16:04
Hi
something to consider: your dog already told you that she would chase an object. So what you need to tell you dog is that once she has something to keep it. Obtaining an object is the first step to possessing, in from the motivation to possess/keep something arises the behavior of guarding.
So I ask, once the dog has gotten something how do I communicate to it that it is in its interest to keep it. Inherent in that question is the notion that whatever the dog has it must really really really want to have it. Some things dogs want naturally but for other things this is more of a challenge because we have to create the need in the dog to want it.This is how I want you to think - forget about methods. *Think*..... that is how you teach a dog because all methods are not for all dogs!
This set is something that you are able to work on with your dog. The difficulty with trained professional trainers is that they don't have the patience and time to interact with the dog. Everybody wants things done yesterday. But I would say this to you whenever I get my dog to do something more than I wanted to do it the behavior is unshakable and reliable. And in that sense I don't command my dogs but more so allow them to work with me.
Sometimes interacting with the dog is trial and error. As I learn about each individual dog and what it tells me. So, for starters[ qualified I have not seen this dog] . I would tie a nice thick piece of steak on a line / flirt pole. The reason being, at this point I do want the significance of his or your body space playing a role. The lesson to communicate to the dog is that nothing absolutely matters in the world, but to get that steak and hang onto it! Everything else is irrelevant. Common sense, the dog has to be extraordinarily hungry which should be reason enough for the docg to want that steak. A side note, before I start, I would use a harness and back tied the dog with the connection line placed up high as to not cause neck or leg injury.
With the dog back tied ,stand several feet away and present the steak to the dog. This is critical, some people do not know how to use a flirt pole: animals respond not just to movement itself, but also to the kind of movement. You must use short, lightning fast jerky movements. As ridiculous as this might sound those shot burst of movements will act as a better trigger to stimulate your dog. So jerk the steak a bit to the right, up a bit to the left, a bit to the right, toward you, back to the dog- as fast as you can say this, the moments must be. Then let the dog get a good bite. You can the steak up off the ground a couple of feet and the gauge the distance as you swing the steak to the dogs mouth for a good bite. If the dog does not bite well immediately whip the steak away from him and give it another try. Once the dog does have a good bite slightly pull back with the flirt pole, add in tension such that the dog does not chew. If the dog opens its mouth again, pull it away and start over. After a number of tries, the dog will get the idea that if it doesn't bite and hold he loses his steak. That will be motivation to keep it, especially if he wants to eat !! And if he fails, then I guess he'll eat sometime tomorrow- if you get the drift. He will learn to hold on .
As as I continue this scenario repeatedly with the dog at a point I'll put a word on to his behavior of gripping when I pull on the flirt pole. I'll communicate to the dog. What's the behaviors been established, Pakin or Hold.
When the dog peers. The cue word 'hold' then the next stage would be to close slowly but surely the distance in late of the pole line such that the end results in me being able to hold the steak in my hand and tug on steak in the dogs mouth. Initially, I would stand sideways as to not put a frontal body to body with the dog. The last step. As I mentioned to you before is to generalize this to other objects. Interesting if done correctly the third, fourth and fifth objects will be much quicker to teach.
Hope this helps
something to consider: your dog already told you that she would chase an object. So what you need to tell you dog is that once she has something to keep it. Obtaining an object is the first step to possessing, in from the motivation to possess/keep something arises the behavior of guarding.
So I ask, once the dog has gotten something how do I communicate to it that it is in its interest to keep it. Inherent in that question is the notion that whatever the dog has it must really really really want to have it. Some things dogs want naturally but for other things this is more of a challenge because we have to create the need in the dog to want it.This is how I want you to think - forget about methods. *Think*..... that is how you teach a dog because all methods are not for all dogs!
This set is something that you are able to work on with your dog. The difficulty with trained professional trainers is that they don't have the patience and time to interact with the dog. Everybody wants things done yesterday. But I would say this to you whenever I get my dog to do something more than I wanted to do it the behavior is unshakable and reliable. And in that sense I don't command my dogs but more so allow them to work with me.
Sometimes interacting with the dog is trial and error. As I learn about each individual dog and what it tells me. So, for starters[ qualified I have not seen this dog] . I would tie a nice thick piece of steak on a line / flirt pole. The reason being, at this point I do want the significance of his or your body space playing a role. The lesson to communicate to the dog is that nothing absolutely matters in the world, but to get that steak and hang onto it! Everything else is irrelevant. Common sense, the dog has to be extraordinarily hungry which should be reason enough for the docg to want that steak. A side note, before I start, I would use a harness and back tied the dog with the connection line placed up high as to not cause neck or leg injury.
With the dog back tied ,stand several feet away and present the steak to the dog. This is critical, some people do not know how to use a flirt pole: animals respond not just to movement itself, but also to the kind of movement. You must use short, lightning fast jerky movements. As ridiculous as this might sound those shot burst of movements will act as a better trigger to stimulate your dog. So jerk the steak a bit to the right, up a bit to the left, a bit to the right, toward you, back to the dog- as fast as you can say this, the moments must be. Then let the dog get a good bite. You can the steak up off the ground a couple of feet and the gauge the distance as you swing the steak to the dogs mouth for a good bite. If the dog does not bite well immediately whip the steak away from him and give it another try. Once the dog does have a good bite slightly pull back with the flirt pole, add in tension such that the dog does not chew. If the dog opens its mouth again, pull it away and start over. After a number of tries, the dog will get the idea that if it doesn't bite and hold he loses his steak. That will be motivation to keep it, especially if he wants to eat !! And if he fails, then I guess he'll eat sometime tomorrow- if you get the drift. He will learn to hold on .
As as I continue this scenario repeatedly with the dog at a point I'll put a word on to his behavior of gripping when I pull on the flirt pole. I'll communicate to the dog. What's the behaviors been established, Pakin or Hold.
When the dog peers. The cue word 'hold' then the next stage would be to close slowly but surely the distance in late of the pole line such that the end results in me being able to hold the steak in my hand and tug on steak in the dogs mouth. Initially, I would stand sideways as to not put a frontal body to body with the dog. The last step. As I mentioned to you before is to generalize this to other objects. Interesting if done correctly the third, fourth and fifth objects will be much quicker to teach.
Hope this helps
by Centurian on 14 April 2016 - 16:04
oh I forgot.. when you have a successful session of interacting then his dinner bowl goes down for his dinner. .. I always reinforce learning and my interaction with my dogs by ending with their dinner bowl on the ground !! This reinforces learning and increases the desire of the dog to want to perform and interact with you, learning is a positive experience.. they form good associations in this manner. !!
by susie on 14 April 2016 - 18:04
What is your goal with this dog?
Is it companion "only" or is it any kind of sport?
Makes a big difference.
Is it companion "only" or is it any kind of sport?
Makes a big difference.
by melba on 14 April 2016 - 18:04
Susie,
All of my dogs are working in one aspect or another. We train in IPO and police venues... tracking, area searches, narc/explosives detection, cadaver etc.
My goals were to bring in new blood, from this particular sire, because of his temperament. Hardness, stable.... police dog types, but without being neurotic. Ultimately for breeding, to be able to continue providing law enforcement with sound, driven, dual purpose dogs. We do a lot of K9 donations. Not so much for sale.
The enjoyment I get from owning dogs is in the training and teamwork associated with that. I have a litter every 2 to 3 years. My old girls (both just turned 11) are obviously retired and living the good life here.
Melissa
All of my dogs are working in one aspect or another. We train in IPO and police venues... tracking, area searches, narc/explosives detection, cadaver etc.
My goals were to bring in new blood, from this particular sire, because of his temperament. Hardness, stable.... police dog types, but without being neurotic. Ultimately for breeding, to be able to continue providing law enforcement with sound, driven, dual purpose dogs. We do a lot of K9 donations. Not so much for sale.
The enjoyment I get from owning dogs is in the training and teamwork associated with that. I have a litter every 2 to 3 years. My old girls (both just turned 11) are obviously retired and living the good life here.
Melissa
by Keith Grossman on 14 April 2016 - 19:04
Use two balls...she will learn that the faster she brings back the first ball, the faster the second will be in play and it will increase drive. You can also use this to begin to reinforce the out command by anticipating when she will drop the ball she has and timing your command appropriately.
by susie on 14 April 2016 - 19:04
So you are not restricted to any special kind of "work" yet... ( Besides that, I like your "goals" and I like your "enjoyment" ).
Your pup seems to have a lot of hunt drive, but no prey yet. In dogs of this kind prey drive kicks in later on often, but not always.
Centurian made some good suggestions to develop the prey drive - but you could go a different route, too - the civil route.
How does she act with strangers? Is she kind of aloof? The helper being the goal, not the tug or the sleeve ( yet ).
"Real life" instead of fun and play...
She sounds like a drivey pup, although her drives are not very "helpful" right now, it´s up to you to channalize her behavior into something you are willing to deal with.
Your pup seems to have a lot of hunt drive, but no prey yet. In dogs of this kind prey drive kicks in later on often, but not always.
Centurian made some good suggestions to develop the prey drive - but you could go a different route, too - the civil route.
How does she act with strangers? Is she kind of aloof? The helper being the goal, not the tug or the sleeve ( yet ).
"Real life" instead of fun and play...
She sounds like a drivey pup, although her drives are not very "helpful" right now, it´s up to you to channalize her behavior into something you are willing to deal with.
by melba on 14 April 2016 - 20:04
Keith, I can't get her to touch the first ball thrown . Just sniff it and leave it.
Susie, right now she will turn herself inside out to have people interact with her. Aloof for about .03 seconds. This, will likely change with time and maturity, not allowing the gratification of the interaction outside of the family, and with certain calm individuals in public. I don't think she is mentally mature enough for civil work just yet. I'd like to promote balance, if it's possible first.
I have been spoiled by my Nero and Deuce. Nero works for his toy, yes, but his happiness comes from working with me. Verbal praise and affection, the desire to please me. Love that. Deuce is a ball fiend, but also works for and with me because he enjoys working and learning. I have the ball to fall back on for an extra good job, to wear them out, to help teach new behaviors etc.. The adoration in their eyes when praised for a job well done. I enjoy working with dogs like that.
I just need to survive the puppy stage and be more patient. See how things pan out using slightly different techniques, and try to communicate better.
Melissa
Susie, right now she will turn herself inside out to have people interact with her. Aloof for about .03 seconds. This, will likely change with time and maturity, not allowing the gratification of the interaction outside of the family, and with certain calm individuals in public. I don't think she is mentally mature enough for civil work just yet. I'd like to promote balance, if it's possible first.
I have been spoiled by my Nero and Deuce. Nero works for his toy, yes, but his happiness comes from working with me. Verbal praise and affection, the desire to please me. Love that. Deuce is a ball fiend, but also works for and with me because he enjoys working and learning. I have the ball to fall back on for an extra good job, to wear them out, to help teach new behaviors etc.. The adoration in their eyes when praised for a job well done. I enjoy working with dogs like that.
I just need to survive the puppy stage and be more patient. See how things pan out using slightly different techniques, and try to communicate better.
Melissa
by BlackMalinois on 14 April 2016 - 20:04
I think its not easy to get a good picture from your dog with words only, you can talk all about the
bloodlines etc, but maybe you can put a video from this dog in his behaviour I,m sure some people
can read dogs very well here and maybe than we get a more clearer picture.
Handler with the dog.......
by Centurian on 14 April 2016 - 21:04
No ... don't jump to using two balls . GEEEEEE Everything about methods ./. lord when will you people learn >
THINK ---- , the poster writes that the dog has zero to no possession motivation ... SO WHY?? Why in the world get the dog bringing back an object , for any reason - for another ball or for any other reason , to drop that ball , to haphazardly without a good reason to give it up ? A second reason:, if you have later a need for the dog to bring something directly to you to have in your hand , for you to take possession , then why in the world get the dog in the habit of dropping it ? Although dogs are poor at generalizing , nevertheless ,they do generalize ... and that means behaviors transfer. One good or bad behavior easily transfers to other behaviors ... Also you teach the dog to come running to you , but then you see the dog start to problem solve : like dropping the ball way in front of you because he anticipates you throwing the second one. dropping the ball before you Cue him to do so , in order to get the other ball sooner.. So the dog learns this ,. now you have to clean things like this up . So good luck teaching the retrieve. maybe the dog tries this with your dumbbell too ?? who knows. Better to do one perfect recall at dinner . the dog comes to you , play tug and then the dinner bowl goes down. You are p[art of the recall , the dog gets what it needs and the desire to come to you fast is kept fresh .. GEEEEE throw two balls . good grief.
DRIVE : foolish stupid concept. First if the dog has the genetic make up for work , it will work .. beyond that there is a threshold whereby we try to make the dog what it is not !! And you better be careful , if you can only get a dog coming back to you because it wants another ball- that speaks for itself. ...IMO , not the best scenario .. poor teaching.. a very very poor foolish old Schutzhund idea. The dog should want to come back to you foremost , because it wants to interact with you ... that is a whole other seminar. Yes at times we motivate the dog , ok . But dogs do things for their own reasons ... If you cannot get a dog to come to you like lightening then either look at the genetics or look at your relationship with your dog. .... If you have to go to extraordinary lengths to do this ... then you have the wrong genetic base.. [ a dog wanting to work with it's handler is a ingrained genetic based trait in GS - it is a herding dog ] get another dog for the purpose. Not all dogs were meant to be everything. Melba , yes.. you are correct about your dogs... they should work WITH and FOR you !! Well stated at that in your post.
Drive again [ stupidity as a term] ... hunt drive as you term it is a form of prey drive expressed , ... hunting is a predatory. predatory behaviors are , exhibited in a number of ways : staring, stalking , ambushing , pouncing , chasing.. all aspects of hunt [ for novices to understand.} I have seen many many many times, helpers misread a GS thinking they have no or low prey drive ,[ a stupid description at that ] because they don't see a dog run after something and they therefore miss the other predatory behaviors signaling the dog''s capability.
New people try to understand , using ' techniques ' is what causes problems, not the dogs!!!! Only inexperienced people fail to see the dog .The dog itself is what dictates : what , when and how you teach and interact with it. It's thoughts , feelings , motivations and capabilities / genetics determine the teaching. that all it is Understanding the dog and communicating in a language the dog understands. As i wrote on another thread .. really : the dog knows how to sit , to chase , to stand , lie down , scent things... especially BITE... these things we are not teaching the dog. we are teaching the dog when , where , why to use what it already does via communication and at times discipline. my previous post here.. dogs have the capability to hold things in their mouth , to give things from their mouth .. that is not the essence of what is being taught.
I lose patience with many people on this forum , not for giving bad advice , but advice that is narrow in scope. If we only think "this is the way to do things" then trouble, just created problems .. dogs are like people they are all different. one shoe does not fit all.
THINK ---- , the poster writes that the dog has zero to no possession motivation ... SO WHY?? Why in the world get the dog bringing back an object , for any reason - for another ball or for any other reason , to drop that ball , to haphazardly without a good reason to give it up ? A second reason:, if you have later a need for the dog to bring something directly to you to have in your hand , for you to take possession , then why in the world get the dog in the habit of dropping it ? Although dogs are poor at generalizing , nevertheless ,they do generalize ... and that means behaviors transfer. One good or bad behavior easily transfers to other behaviors ... Also you teach the dog to come running to you , but then you see the dog start to problem solve : like dropping the ball way in front of you because he anticipates you throwing the second one. dropping the ball before you Cue him to do so , in order to get the other ball sooner.. So the dog learns this ,. now you have to clean things like this up . So good luck teaching the retrieve. maybe the dog tries this with your dumbbell too ?? who knows. Better to do one perfect recall at dinner . the dog comes to you , play tug and then the dinner bowl goes down. You are p[art of the recall , the dog gets what it needs and the desire to come to you fast is kept fresh .. GEEEEE throw two balls . good grief.
DRIVE : foolish stupid concept. First if the dog has the genetic make up for work , it will work .. beyond that there is a threshold whereby we try to make the dog what it is not !! And you better be careful , if you can only get a dog coming back to you because it wants another ball- that speaks for itself. ...IMO , not the best scenario .. poor teaching.. a very very poor foolish old Schutzhund idea. The dog should want to come back to you foremost , because it wants to interact with you ... that is a whole other seminar. Yes at times we motivate the dog , ok . But dogs do things for their own reasons ... If you cannot get a dog to come to you like lightening then either look at the genetics or look at your relationship with your dog. .... If you have to go to extraordinary lengths to do this ... then you have the wrong genetic base.. [ a dog wanting to work with it's handler is a ingrained genetic based trait in GS - it is a herding dog ] get another dog for the purpose. Not all dogs were meant to be everything. Melba , yes.. you are correct about your dogs... they should work WITH and FOR you !! Well stated at that in your post.
Drive again [ stupidity as a term] ... hunt drive as you term it is a form of prey drive expressed , ... hunting is a predatory. predatory behaviors are , exhibited in a number of ways : staring, stalking , ambushing , pouncing , chasing.. all aspects of hunt [ for novices to understand.} I have seen many many many times, helpers misread a GS thinking they have no or low prey drive ,[ a stupid description at that ] because they don't see a dog run after something and they therefore miss the other predatory behaviors signaling the dog''s capability.
New people try to understand , using ' techniques ' is what causes problems, not the dogs!!!! Only inexperienced people fail to see the dog .The dog itself is what dictates : what , when and how you teach and interact with it. It's thoughts , feelings , motivations and capabilities / genetics determine the teaching. that all it is Understanding the dog and communicating in a language the dog understands. As i wrote on another thread .. really : the dog knows how to sit , to chase , to stand , lie down , scent things... especially BITE... these things we are not teaching the dog. we are teaching the dog when , where , why to use what it already does via communication and at times discipline. my previous post here.. dogs have the capability to hold things in their mouth , to give things from their mouth .. that is not the essence of what is being taught.
I lose patience with many people on this forum , not for giving bad advice , but advice that is narrow in scope. If we only think "this is the way to do things" then trouble, just created problems .. dogs are like people they are all different. one shoe does not fit all.
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