Pick your brains... 6 month old won't go after "dead" prey - Page 5

Susie , and for Newcomers/Novices I write this :

yes this was a truly amazing Gs. A gs that one would ever be able to get in a lifetime. But many people have crossover from one protection sport to another. This is not outlandish because fundamental and learned skills are Universal . This is also why one this thread i write about , forget techniques , because it is concepts and skill i teach. I create the picture and expectations in the dog's mind. For example , and i start to teach 10 week puppies to go right into and onto body space. All over the body and for the bite . I teach a pup go in hard and fast . to bite hard fast and full. to work /bite at any time , anyplace , no matter the environmental factors , such as a puppy jumping into a kiddie water pool for a bite., to jump on a barrel for a bite .. I teach nothing matters but the bite and a full hard quality of bite. OK - fundamentals. So.... no issues are created right from the start.. again not surprising later the dogs can transfer. But it is easier to go from French or Belgium ring to Sch for most dogs that vice a verse, if not taught this way . Because if you only teach target a Sch sleeve , then that is what the dog learns, that is what is predictably successful for the dog , that is what you get .. also because i was trained to teach Sch , to a degree I retain aspects in training. For example even though I may do Fr. Ring i still as a puppy 8 week start ground tracking , and I require the "full mouth " . also many sports have similar exercises or requirements , it is just that they are executed differently . Retrieve , heel , guard /hold vs a bark /hold . etc. So with a very very good dog sport to sport is more than possible. 20 years ago I had one dog from Jeck Noricum and Odin Tannenmiese , i taught him in three languages , English , French and German and he performed Initially Sch , then French ring and later he learned Personal Protection . I am not great , I want to be humble but I want people to understand that dogs have good capabilities .. and I w want to encourage people if they are not satisfied in what they are doing that it is possible to do other sports with a good dog !!
VK .. i keep this short.. many of my friends live with at least 6 dogs in their house . And In Alaska .. many many people have a minimum of 50 dogs at the same time !!! The big time Iditarod mushers some , whom I have met have 500 dogs. !! I started at age 8 with my first gs, and 50 years later , still that isn't that many in a lifetime. But I appreciate your feedback - not offended. Having 14 , the most at any 1 time for me is trivial . .. Believe me , the experience of dog ownership is much much much easier with 5, 6, 8, dogs than it is with one. I forego the the hows and why but anyone is welcome to discuss this topic with me .. Oh ./.. IMO it is easier with 9 gs then it was years ago with raising 9 children.. Philisophically asking , how did they raise 9 or 10 children ??

If you have GSD titled in multiple venues that's awesome and worthy of much respect. Such dogs typically become famous even before the internet such dogs get known around the world.

Name of these dogs??

I know people with multiple dogs, they either spend their life in crates when not on training night or they are in puppy mills.


Assuming you are not a self funded millionaire who doesn't work for a living I call BS on training 11 dogs.

The GSD is not a pack dog or a sled team breed, they always do better when they are sole companion of their people.

I own hounds, they thrive in a pack but they also work as a pack, GSD is totally different mindset. Every moment of my life available goes into keeping 4 dogs worked down. 11 GSD I believe impossible to work and train. How is this done??

Excuse me but I am skeptical of your claims.

VK it is not important.. i come to this forum to converse and help people . i don't want people to know what i have done or not done/ I want people simply to read my posts and think for themselves... ..Such things - they don't matter to me , I'd rather be a nobody , i don't need fame or fortune..I have had and still do , some very exceptional GS and i don't want the world to know .. I don't want the money , the notoriety. I thank God for all the dogs that i have had and I simply live my life for the love of the dog , gs in particular. Besides I don't care for ribbons and trophies , which I have enough of .. They mean nothing to me - the love of the dog does !! I have seen so much corruption , hypocrisy in the dog world around the world , it isn't even funny. I just only wish to simply live my life with my dogs. Some of my dogs are titled , those I breed , but other gs I don't breed because I am particular as to the breed worthiness and therefore they have fundamental training .
My dogs never spend their life in crates, puppies yes are crate trained , so that they don't learn bad habits and so I could fly them back and forth to Germany when needed.
The GS is not a pack dog you are of the mindset .. .. If you give a way for me to e mail pictures to you .. I would be pleased to show you - I don't take offense to your post. Dogs are pack animals by nature. You and your dog .. that is a pack . The German shepherd should have high pack [ i won't use the word Drive] behavioral traits. It is a sheep herding dog , Many herders have more than one gs controlling their flock !! . The gs living in a family is a pack. Also by nature dogs prefer to live with their own kind not people BTW. .. We are simply surrogates / substitutes . Many knowledgable gs breeders , selectively breed for this for this pack behavioral trait. This trait is best for a working dog because it intensifies the dog's proclivity to work with the handler. too.
I would be thrilled to converse with you about how my gs are trained , how they interact.. but another time or PM me . I apologize ., i post far to much as it is on a thread. Try to understand , I don't train every single dog I owned at once . Some have been trained and grow to adulthood . , then a puppy or two comes along . The new pups are trained one on one or together . Maybe the next day they are in and around the other dogs in the kitchen and they get a 3 minute session . It varies. I don't care the other gs are there , it is my job to get the pups attending to me , that is my job to teach. And if I don;t want the older dogs to interefer , i tell them Platz. That is just a glimpse.
On training night .. my other dogs are in pack they have a 50x50 foot pen to hang out in or they can go through a doggie dog inside the house. - no crating .
Training , I had all my GS because i could afford to . And training.. I share this for every one to read . I think there was a thread about amount session time spent training a dog. I laughed , and I almost posted . But i share this.. How long I spend with a pup ... 30 seconds here and there. It is not the session length that is important. It is your ability to communicate precisely, such that the pup grasps the concept / the lesson. I don't bore my dogs to death. And I teach many things within a day to them . Not the same one thing over and over and over. For example I teach a pup to be calm .. simple I never even utter a word. i wait 30 seconds , the pup figures that it has no option but to stop jumping in the crate , pawing the door. The moment the dog is is calm , bingo the door opens. within a few days believe . After the behavior is established then I associate the word " relax" if need .
Next I might purposely leave the dog , to teach it that it is in it's interest to come to me,a 10 second interaction. --- a short learning event . VK , you don't have to spend a 1/2 hour with the dog .. as a matter of fact that can actually de-motivate the dog. You lose the dog's mind ... Attention span . Better to do something 1, 2, 3 times exactly 100% than 20 times half baked . Set the dog up to execute exactly correctly the first time !! Like life : it is the little things that add up to be important.
Recall .. did you ever see a dog compete in a pack to see who would get to you first. ? I use the emotions of the dogs at times to my advantage. . BTW , my last pup i trained this at 12 weeks without a collar , no leash --- He already learned and understood the concept of : sit / hold the sit/ and i go away out of sight for 4 seconds / and expect me to always come back to you I can teach you to teach a dog the concept of "leave it" in about 1 minute , some dogs 10 seconds , others 5 minutes, !! I can teach a 10 week pup the beginning of ' holding it's position ' in 5 minutes. Ok . having multiple dogs is not all that overwhelming. So I might have a little little bit of experience .. Teaching many dogs as you can see is not problematic for me. I teach most of OB Sport to pups in my kitchen BTW. You don't have to go to a training field all the time . Anyone reading this thread can do this .. Anyone.. And many I am sure would in time be better at it than me !! people create problems ... not the dogs !!
Another thread topic... if you understand Dominance or alpha .. you would know that it is a Dynamic , not a Static designation. That is to say even in a pack of GS the one that you think is the alpha dominant may not be if you took a walk through the woods. another may very well take over the position .. that is because there is a very good pack behavior among GS too and you would be surprised the difference of the pack at in home protection vs a hunt in the woods. !!
Anyway .. It is ok for you to be skeptical .. No offense taken .I don't mind if people disagree , I don't care if they choose not to believe me..I am not looking for a pat or to be famous. just be respectful and honest ..and if you are I would do all that i can to help anyone. I write this so other people can get a glimpse of life with multiple dogs.

All those words to say you do no more training than to make puppies ready for sale. No dual French ring / IPO title huh, lost that in the verbiage.

No sorry the traits of GSD, loyalty, dominance, territorial.... precisely make them unsuitable as dogs to work in a pack. I mean work not spend time in a platz while you give puppy 30 second attention because a buyer is coming.

This photo was taken 20 years ago , when ...it's not a staged occurance or a edited picture. This was a how I expected my dogs to perform in pack when requested inside my home as well as outside.  This is the  life they lived. Note even with toys , they do not fight.   It is my hope that for novices seeing is believing  

     GS can work in pack ,  they have even been is snow sled teams  too with some people . Not the best snow dog .. Two of the GS in that picture BTW did were taught to draft  and pulled kiddie sleds BTW. 

       If someone came upon my property unannounced .. any average person, those without any dog experience or  know how  , would have no difficulty understanding  they would all respond in pack mode to investigate that intruder , and  believe me they would have !! Note :  the GS third from the top with a kong toy , was  trained in Sch , FR Ring and peresonal protection. Believe me , not projected by his demeanor in the photo .. this was one serious serious GS !! The female beside the black longhair did french Ring and the Entry level in French Ring is defense of handler under gun fire for one protection exercise -- that is Brevet , entry for  starters .. 

Still no dual French ring / IPO titled dog you were going to show us.

Just some obese dogs in a platz outside a crappy kennel with a crappy plastic igloo for shelter.

Your just another puppy farmer.

Congratu-F'ing-lations on your life cashing in on the breed.

 

Please stop trying to fool novices.

Listen .. I make no, money doing this , I have no motive.. not but one motive but to share on this site. the best in the world freely shared with me , so in a way i fell I should do the same to exchange ideas .. no more no less. I don't disclose a kennel name for myself anywhere on this site or anywhere else . I don't advertise. I don't look for or want people seeking me out. I'll help .. but that's it. This is why I don't disclose my name .. i look for nothing, absolutely nothing from anyone. GS is my second professional vocation .. not my first by any means. BTW cashing in on the breed ? I have but 1 litter a year if even at that. People can decide for themselves but i think even anyone with simple common sense realizes , dogs just don't line up and hold a position , just because they feel like it. . Takes time and teaching for that .. VK .. it's ok ,i don't mind your skeptism .. write what you will .. I am still not offended .. Because : It is what i think , say and do that I need concern myself with , and what my dogs think and do ... that is my concern not what others think , say and do ..

"...i don't want people to know what i have done or not done..."

Then perhaps you should stop referring to other people as novices and inexperienced when you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

"This was a how I expected my dogs to perform in pack..."

I see people post pictures like this on Facebook all of the time and to me they speak more to the character of the dogs than good training.  You would not get away with this with strong, dominant dogs.

The dogs all look sad.

Keith -- I don't know exactly what you are commenting about ? Why should I or anyone come on the forum to brag about himself / herself. I am not here to impress people about my dogs or am I here to prove myself or make a name for me or my dogs.. is that so off center ? I come to exchange ideas or offer ideas . I ask nothing for anyone, and if they want to think differently I am happy . Thank you for your feedback ...
Now I have a question or two for you . But first I state : I never wrote that all GS should be in a pack, I tried to indicate that they were 'Pack" animals, dogs are pack animals by nature ..
The picture posted was to illustrate , that GS in a pack is possible !! ... I never said for every GS lineage that this must be the case or that multiple GS can always to live together . Of course not, !! No one said every strain GS should be like this . Yes , living in a pack or not , is multi-factorial in the dog world , Genetics do have a contributing factor , as well as the owners and other factors.
So how many people currently have 1,2,3 GS in a household. You mean that you never have seen or heard of such an occurrence ? If you have done IPO/Sch in the BH , then you have tested your dog to do a down by himself , while another canine passed by your dog . Wasn't he to be tolerant of that passing by dog in order to receive his BH ? Then , for the most part, in some lineages of GS ,not all , but some, why cannot they be expected to be tolerant of other GS within the house ?
Also for IPO/Sch are you not required to have your dog in a down position on the sidelines of the field while another handler/dog team perform on the field? Isn't your dog expected to hold his position and be tolerant of that other dog performing ? Do you expect a dog fight ?
Wolves , wild animals , not genetically selected , and of make up dominant and hard , they form a balance and a cooperative peaceful arrangement , don't they ? And all canines , are they a pack animal .
Last question , then Why in IPO/Sch do we talk about " PACK DRIVE" ... if the animal has no predisposition from innate genetics , then why in the world do we discuss 'the behavioral trait "PACK" ... referring to a specific drive ??
The picture : unfortunately all pictures , they have their limits ... But Keith take another look ..... as I wrote, some of the dogs were serious GS. At that time, 20+ years ago , the show lines had very serious dogs as the split occurred between SL/ WL. Not like today. Two of those dogs were serious - I can't put that into a photo. BUT , please take another look ... NONE of those dogs , not one is wearing a collar or leash, or any other controlling device. . not but a one... And they were down for 30 minutes. That was the last picture I took in a series. They wanted to say "ok time to get playing again" . so some frowns. So my last question to you ... do you think it is just easy to control all the dogs to down , hold that position .. I am no where near them /.. 30 feet away .. yet they listen . anyone of them could have gotten up and taken the rest. I had just but one way to communicate to them . Nothing other than my mouth .. yet they stay disciplined .. And you ...ask yourself ...  I need no answer , for this isn't a contest :  have you ever done this with any dogs ? How many visiting the PDB , do you think, can control a pack of GS in the middle of the woods, at home , without any leashes attatched to collars  ???

     Thank you for your feedback and sharing your thoughts - we are entitled to think  as we wish .