Can someone explain me what this master trainer and master decoy are doing ?? - Page 22

Hans, I don't see Susie's post as trolling. She trains different - you train the way you want - if you ruin dogs, you do and that is on you not Susie or any other member here. She is welcome to state her opinion, here we can have a different opinion than you and generally if we keep it civil no one is going to ban us. Let us deal with the trolling. State your opinion of the idea, method or tool and move on. This really shouldn't be about winning or losing a debate and more about learning from all. If we could all remember that we are still learning and none of us know it all, I really think that would help everybody learn more.

You have more desire for me to prove myself than I care to prove myself to you or anyone for that matter. The best that I can tell you is that you have to work with the type of trainers that best suit your goal. I am good at what I am good at. But I do not claim to be good at all aspects of training. Example, I really dislike working FR dogs. I can catch them fine but it is not my cup of tea. There are clubs that I would not train with. That does not mean that they are not really good at what they do, it just might not be my flavor. There was a trainer in Chicago when I lived there that could put the defense pressure on like no one Id since trained with. Now I would not train with to lay the foundation on my dog but when I had a mature adult that I wanted a new decoy to put on the defense guess who I went to go see. Walther, he was famous and sometimes infamous in Chicago depending on who you asked and what you were looking for. I think people learn too much from YouTube. You being newer should be at clubs of some sort (possible you already are) and see for yourself what they like. My training changes depending on the goal. If you want sport, I can do that. If you want at dog trained PP style trained with a guarantee that he will engage to the n th degree that is done different. It does not all take place on a field either. We do ATM, mock home invasion. Your best PP dog work is done without any bites depending on what the dog needs. If you want Schutzhund that's different as well. I can lay good foundations for that. So I am versatile but I do not claim to know everything. I have worked with many trainers and I took what I liked for my tool box and left what I did not like. I learned from those in many different venues PP, Sch, FR, Police work for example.

It is one of those take it or leave it type things. If you do not like what you see, leave it. I realize a lot do not even know what they are looking at. The first 18 pages of this post was filled with opinions and ono ne even knew what the training (their words, not mine it was actually a test)was for. One respondent told me it was not a test after I said what the intentions of this video was. I don't even know hoy to disagree with an idiot like that when I was present in the conversation of what would transpire during this session and I am the decoy. I can only venture to say that they are trolling.

@troublelinx, this is Prager's first post on the video: "It is easy to see unedited video of training in progress like this one... this is part of my videos of a dog in progress used for my and my student's training purposes... Anybody who trains and is honest knows that training is not always picture perfect like painting by Rembrandt. This is a training video which should be and will be part of the series to show progress of this dog... This is training in progress."

According to Prager it was training, not a test.

Also, you didn't give a reason why anyone should believe you. It was just more of the sales pitch. You can claim to have trained all of these dogs for LE but if you can't prove it, then to a rational person, it never happened. This isn't religion, it's dog training.

GSD Admin I welcome different opinion which are advancing the issue and are not just designed to upset. To me statement like this:"Trouble, you "enjoyed" to read the article - so you should start to think about the training you are actually part of."   IMO  this statement is disguised as friendly advice but in reality it aims to upsets or eliciting an angry response from troublelinx.  But I digress. Otherwise I agree with your post and say - from your mouth to god's ears.  

 

notisyou I have already responded to this point on page 18 yet you are making it here (in your post above) again. You are repeating this training vs testing as mantra in hope to proof your point by sheer repetition even  though it  was already explained satisfactorily in more then one of my former posts. This is really a very trivial issue. So I'll give you a benefit of doubt and in case you did not read the post or if you did not get it the first time I'll tell you again. If I train new exercise   like in this case a muzzle attack, than the first part of the training is ALWAYS initial  TESTING of where the dog is at. EVEN THE ARTICLE FROM BOB EDEN SAYS THAT THIS IS WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE IN POINT #5.  What we are testing for is  what is dog's courage and ability to deal with such stress. That is why I am just standing there so that I can see which way is the dog going to go on her own.  Some may disagree and I do not care. That is what I have called "training" and the initial "test" is part of such "training" process which as you see I am talking about.
Only an idiot will start training without knowing where the dog is at. In the same post I have stated that this is a FIRST session in the series of sessions of muzzle training LuvLuv will be participating. Thus first session = testing session. I hope this helps.
Prager Hans

I'll say this . Some people trully want to learn ere and for some other people this is contest of sorts and for others yet it is a thrill of social warfare fun and for some it is matter of cyber stalking and trolling and so on you name it .
If a honest person who wants to learn and they see video they do not understand then I suggest they ask for explanation before they attack. That is only fair way to go. Yet what we have here is public lashing of Hans =OH so much fun.
I will say that I am man enough to say that I have ****** up when I **** up. All the people here are acting like dog trainers experts holier then God yet some did not trained more then handful of dogs if that.
Some at the beginning said that this is personality assassination attempt. And that this  what this OP is. Anybody who does not admit that is ....Eh I will not go there.

Prager - just a technical correction about the author of that article - it is Brian Amm. The article is on Bob's site. Brian and Bob owned/operated a K9 (LEO) training kennel for a while, and that is where Brian taught me to do muzzle work. I also worked (volunteered, actually) along with Bob as I helped train the Delta PD new K9's and handlers at the same time. Both Brian and Bob were excellent teachers for my decoy work with police dogs, and we had lots of fun training.

One very important aspect of beginning muzzle work was ensuring the dog was acclimatized to the muzzle by other exercises. We started the dog on targeting work by the handler "making like a post" and decoy doing some run-bys in front of the dog and heightening the dog's drive through frustration. The decoy would advance then retreat, and this time the handler would follow, allowing the dog to catch up to decoy. Just before the dog got to the decoy, the decoy would get down on knees presenting the upper body to dog, usually with arms behind back, and the dog would then hit the upper body portion of decoy with the forward momentum. The handler would praise and make like a post again, allowing the decoy to roll away from the dog and run away. After a few times like this, with the dog gaining speed on the entry and confidence on the hit to decoy's body, the decoy would then engage the dog in ground fight after the hit. The handler always joins in the ground fight with the dog, praising and building confidence in dog. Then after a short ground fight the handler gains control of leash and this will allow decoy to roll away from dog and run away. When dog is showing good targeting of upper body when decoy goes to knees, and good ground fight after the hit, then the next progression is to have the decoy standing and sending dog in for hit. If the foundation work went well, then the dog should target the upper body centre-mass when sent, either front or back when this is available. The objective was to get the dog to knock down the decoy, then engage in ground fight/grip until the handler could arrive and assist/make apprehension.

One other, very important thing about doing muzzle work - always check the security of the muzzle before starting. Either get the handler to demonstrate to decoy the the muzzle will not come off, or decoy test the security him/herself. This cannot be overemphasized, as muzzle work is dangerous enough without running the risk of the muzzle coming off. And decoy keep fingers/hands off muzzle!

This is just a synopsis of beginning muzzle work, as it was taught to me, and it has been a long time since I did this stuff. There are many different takes on the work and progression, but it is very important to set a good foundation, build confidence in the dog and teamwork of dog/handler.
 

koots, Thank you for your input it is good. Thank you. FYI my dog is used to muzzle but not to muzzle attack.

I must say think it is quite vindicating to know experts agree (smug look as I type).

@Prager, you said, "All the people here are acting like dog trainers experts holier then God yet some did not trained more then handful of dogs if that."

It sounds to me like you experienced a moment of self-awareness.

Also, you mention point 5 in the article in order to reinforce the notion that you know what you are doing. The problem is that if anyone reads the entire article they will see that you failed at following other points.

Let me explain something to you about the USA. Here, consumers have the right to ask questions before giving their money to someone. Here, an ETHICAL business owner welcomes those questions. He will even volunteer information without being solicited for it. A legitimate business will sell itself by using its results which it will readily and gladly verify.

This isn't the country where you were raised and educated where people are told what they are supposed to believe without any proof. Where someone in a position of authority gets to create truth and facts. You claim to be an authority and dictate what is the truth without feeling any need to back those claims up. It's the truth simply because you said so. That isn't how a nation like the USA works.

Those who know better don't need you to prove anything because they can see for themselves what the truth is. The ones who don't know any better, the very ones you condescend to, need to see proof. A real expert can look at your videos and know whether or not your training claims are real. The ones who you talk down to are the ones who are your customers. If you don't feel as though your customers deserve or have the right to get the facts before they part with their money it says something about you as a businessman.

A real trainer would sell based on his results. You sell yourself.