Information regarding a pedigree and kennel - Page 4

So, you have an excellent bitch who also happens to be a liver, and you want to breed from her, not because of her unique colour, but despite it.

I have no reasons to doubt you, except I didn't understand why you are enquiring about a stud who's also off colour. Coincidence?

But, why is the stud owner into this breeding? If he's also not breeding for unique colour, then why does he want two female puppies? Isn't he breeding solely for colour?

Even if you turn down this breeder and manage to find another one who shares your ideas, what about the future owners of your off-colour puppies?

Your action is going to open a Pandora's Box, where another line of GSDs will be bred for colour, and colour only, keeping aside all the important tests and also shrinking the gene pool of that line, the very thing you claim to despise about unethical breeders.

Think again, and think hard this time.

Actually, Britny, Jango von der Böhmer Mühle was not a long coat--that variety of coat has no undercoat, and you can clearly see this dog had plenty of that. In fact, he was registered with the German breed registry, the SV, as a stock coat, and I believe he had a show rating [which a dog with a disqualifying fault, such as an out-of-standard coat color, can not obtain], though his owner had no intentions of breeding him, despite his excellent lineage.

So the comparison is apples and oranges, really. As you're new to the neighborhood, perhaps you aren't aware that susie is a German citizen and resident, so naturally her viewpoint is from the vantage of adhering to the standard of the breed club of the country of origin for the breed.

You can hope that the SV, or the AKC, UKC or CKC for those of us in North America, will relent and allow livers and blues to be approved for breeding, but that it is not going to happen; they were permitted during the early years of the breed's creation, but once the breed characteristics were standardized those coat colors were no longer tolerated for breeding purposes. You cited the recognition of white dogs, but don't forget that they are not recognized as German Shepherd Dogs in Europe, but rather have been split off as a separate breed called the White Swiss Shepherd Dog.

I have no reason to doubt that your female is everything you say she is and more, and it is commendable that your intentions are to train and show her--when you say 'show her', I presume you mean in one or more of the working venues [obedience, tracking, agility, etc.], since her coat color eliminates her from the conformation classes. That you wouldn't breed a dog unless he or she has all of the health certifications and soundness assessments is also a credit to your involvement with the breed, as there are many who feel those things aren't that important. But you will be hard pressed to find anyone serious about the breed and their commitment to it who will be supportive of using out-of-standard color dogs for breeding stock. That said, you aren't the first person, and you won't be the last, to wade into the waters here determined to convince the world that livers and blues are just as breed-worthy as the in-standard colors.

@ hexe THANK YOU!! Finally a worth reading response. You are correct I want to work with both my male and female on working venues these are a part of the family they were not inquired for breeding and as I said wasn't looking at it very seriously I just wanted thoughts. I am new to the forums I didn't mean to start any craziness I just wanted peoples thoughts I would think we could all do that without casting stones so to speak. I guess I am learning though.

@ Swarnendu I wasn't enquiring about a stud who's also off colour someone approached me with a stud who happens to have a carrier or blue I like I said am not gonna just turn someone away so I was digging into the pedigree and was questioning if it was fake or the real deal because this person wants two female pups which will probably carry for off colors I could see them being used simply for color so I really made up my own mind there that this isn't what I want for any pups produced if I do. I rather they go to active families willing to work and give them jobs to do.

regardless I am still getting health testing done. Why because I think its important

BritnyHon, you do realise that you are under no obligation to this other woman breeder who has the stud dog ? You CAN refuse her kind enquiry if you want to ! I was with you all the way on what you said in your opening few posts, about not wanting to be part of that knuckle-dragging crew who ONLY breed for 'rare' colours ('cos they sell). I do not know exactly what the ratio is in America, but here in the UK we have almost an opposite problem from that you stated, in that the people breeding for off colours ARE the ones breeding without doing the health tests. Put together a line of dogs bred to get the most white or blue or liver coats - and/or long coats - where no attention is paid to hips or elbows or haemophilia or epilepsy, and couple that with 'nipples dragging the ground' as you describe, and you can see why GSD folk on MY side of the Pond would be keen to stop this mating in its tracks. But nobody in the UK commented on your thred so far. As far as I can see no-one has been particularly rude or hard on you, either.
Yet the few comments there have been - albeit expressed in poor English, we usually forgive Susie for that on here, given she is German and VERY knowledgeable - about 'you' OR THIS STUD OWNER really did not ought to be trying to mate these two particular dogs, set you very much on the defensive. You said you "asked for peoples' thoughts" ... but Hexe's were the only one "worth reading". Why ?

All the comments that had positive information was worth reading I would consider yours worth reading too and thank you. I may sound on defense but really I am simply looking for thoughts and advice not just simple "your a terrible person" "comments about color that have nothing else to say" don't get me wrong I am headstrong and defense too when protecting my dogs and I have to be I get offers all the time and as described they aren't desirable ones or I get comments from people as I have said stopping and saying what terrible genetic flaws I have in my two dogs. This to be is just rude and has made me stone at times. So I do apologize.

I am under no obligation I am very aware but any pedigree will make me curious enough to research I just found this one a little suspicious.

Positive informations:

BritnyHon, You seem to take good care of your dogs = positive
You didn´t breed them yet = positive

In case you are willing to READ the ORIGINAL standard = positive
In case you will never breed your dogs = positive

A lot of dog owners ( no matter the breed ) believe to own great specimens of the choosen breed...
In case of the German Shepherd Dog there are more dogs than needed ( take a look at the shelters ).

A liver or blue German Shepherd Dog is NOT breedworthy because of its color according to the breed standard.

Only for you - I chose my latest male because of his temperament, because of his parents, great grand parents, not because of his coat length. When I got him long stock coats were not allowed for breeding, I didn´t care, because I am no breeder...although 2 years later the long stock coats became allowed within SV ( for me a fault, but nobody asked me ), I still didn´t breed this dog...

What I want to say - It´s great you are the proud owner of a liver and a blue German Shepherd Dog, I was the proud owner of a long stock coat, these dogs deserve good homes, they are living beings, color or coat length doesn´t matter - but as soon as you start to breed them you are not breeding according to the existing breed standard for German Shepherd Dogs -
there are thousands of German Shepherd Dogs out there, health tested, IPO titled, show rated, breed surveyed - your dogs are special for you, that´s great for you and for your dogs, but they are not special for the breed as a whole.

Do me a personal favor and
read the FCI standard #166,
read the IPO/herding/RH2 rules ( FCI )
read the breeding requirements for German Shepherd Dogs ( SV ).

Afterwards you may decide about the breedworthiness of your dogs once again.

Every "breeder" needs to decide if he/she wants to follow an existing breed standard, or if he/she only wants to reproduce beloved pets.

I hope I didn´t sound too harsh again - I LOVE this breed, it´s a working dog breed.

@ susie Thank you! That is the response I am looking for and will take the time to read without banging my head against the computer and turning defensive.

And ill make sure and read up on
"
read the FCI standard #166,
read the IPO/herding/RH2 rules ( FCI )
read the breeding requirements for German Shepherd Dogs ( SV ).
"

As I said I am cramming myself with knowledge I have personally ran a rescue for animals before I know the shelters are crammed with unwanted dogs thrown away a lot of them German Shepherds a few of these rescues I donate to as much as I can funding a dog that touches my heart. However this will never stop no matter how much you can educate a person at times. I don't wanna whelp or stud out knowing the puppies I could produce will end up in the same fate or let alone worse looked in a kennel and just bred over and over again. So thank you I think I got my answer while it was hard to read certain comments.

As I suspect the reason I was approached even though nice pedigree was because they wanted two female breeding pairs to produce simple color nothing more. The stud she has still makes me even question the pedigree which is never a good flag in my mind.

Thank care.

locked*

Excuse spelling errors at times I type way to fast and don't proof read.