Environmental / Civil Training. - Page 3

BW that's one thing we will agree on for the moment. Mithuna has a cheek.

Extending BW post
Sch / IPO is not difficult !! Goodness ,  pet companion dogs ,  taught by everyday people have their dogs sit , down ,come... I wrote this on another thread . What is it, that the dog does in performance, that  in realty, a dog does not naturally do ? Let's see , a dog sits , yes? , a dog downs, yes ? a dog jumps , yes? , a dog comes to you and goes away from you , yes? A dog walks , yes and a dog in essence is 90% nose and uses it's nose better than we use ours , yes ? The only difference is communicating to the dog when and where to do these things with some precision and trial rules . Not all that earth shattering to ,teach a dog folks. I am not with intention diminishing anyone's accomplishment in competing. But come on folks , I have taught companion classes for years , with people, teaching the same exercises , just not so choreographed.

Protection... in the sport I would love to see them do a way with that word' protection'. BW is correct , in 10 seconds i will tell you if that dog will hold up in true life threatening scenarios as opposed to a dog that is biting for sport. Sch and IPO really don't require the dog to perform as if the context were for real.Like his life or someone else's life depended on the team's functioning. I've done that courage test with a golden retriever for goodness sake. Please , I am not , I repeat , I am NOT knocking IPO /Sch . But in the context of true protection this is not always the case within those endeavors and IMOp the word should not be applicable within them. Just my HOp.
Yes a good dog would do well in both endeavors , but the fact is that some don't and in that case the standard to those that do and those that don't should not be the same. Nothing wrong with a dog that doesn't work for real . As far as I am concerned ,[ and personally I wholeheartedly believe this] that is super ,because the behavioral traits in the GS that we want for other functions / utilization is 100% diametrically opposite for what we select for true protection . Why do we sort of imply that a GS that does mot do 'real protection' performance is some how inferior to those that do? Those that don't ,need not , do not,  take a back seat to any other IMOp. Finding a missing person and saving their life is just as , again , just as, important than being able to defend them. Ditto for other endeavors such as Scent Detectors i.e. in health , explosives ...

What i am suggesting is to truthfully/honestly describe the capabilities of the dog and to VALUE ALL GS , for what they do .. This is not a question about one up man-ship, wwhat dog is better or not. They all have value. . Yet at the same time let's describe the dog and it's performance with exactness and honesty.

Centurian...your humble opinion is so far off base it’s laughable. If you really think that teaching a dog to bite a suit or a hidden sleeve is harder than training a dog to a national or world level in IPO, you clearly have no idea what IPO takes.

Schutzhund titling is easy? I'm sure you've titled plenty of dogs. You’re exactly why many don’t give the back yard bite work specialists any respect. You can’t even grasp the difficulty that goes into titling a dog, especially on a high level, and so why would anyone take anything you do seriously?

Contrary to what the majority of back yard bite trainers like to put out on the internet, their dogs RARELY if EVER get tested in a real life situation, and they all know it. Most train their dogs up to scenarios, record the good ones, and throw those on the internet. A dog is never truly tested by a real scenario or has to fight a person who is also fighting for their life. I’m not talking the fake punching and hard patting with the hand as the dog is hanging onto your protected biceps. I’m not talking about throwing plastic bottles or hitting the dog with a jug. I’m talking a real fight where someone is actively trying and succeeding in inflicting pain on the dog. The only difference in pressure between a stick hit and the bag in the video is that someone at some point told the handler that the bag is “more pressure” and they went with it…oh and it “looks cooler.”

In IPO, if a person chooses to test their dog on a strange field and strange helper, they can do so. Of course most people never do that, but they’re also just enjoying training their dog in something which has some sort of test. Same thing with PPD work…most people never test their dogs on strange people because they’re simply not available, and really, like I said above, RARELY does someone actually get attacked and the dog is put in a situation to protect.

Sure, anyone can title a dog. But not everyone can make it into the top 10 of the world!
And there lies the difference. You can drag a dog through a title, but COMPETING isn't the same as titling a dog. Just saying...
Just as anyone can throw a football but how many actually make into the NFL? 

Yup…and unfortunately the majority of the naysayers of IPO have either never had the ability to compete either due to their dog’s lack of ability or more than likely their own lack of training ability. Humans are competitive, we like to win or at least come close, and when you can’t get that high in trial or maybe make it to the next level due to your own inability, most quit. It’s why the United States has had such a high rise in bite sport that eliminates the more difficult exercises in IPO…tracking, retrieves, any resemblance of control in protection. It’s why we’re constantly seeing posts about focused heeling or “prey dogs” being the only dogs that can compete. It has very little to do with the sport, and mostly with the fact that people just can’t train their dogs to get up to a certain level which will give them some sort of recognition. It’s easy to go to a club, that doesn’t have a single high level competitor, and believe that all IPO dogs are like what is seen at a club level. Very little understanding, even when watching video of trials and training, of the difference between a club level performance and a high scoring national level performance…especially when they’re judged on slightly different scales and people don’t know that.

The "my dog is too much dog for IPO" is just a cop out when as a handler you can't train that type of dog. Sure...might be a strong dog, but 99% of the time lack of training doesn't mean the dog is too much dog for the sport, just means that the handler doesn't have the ability to train it. But let's be serious...no dog trainer will ever admit that...always easier to just say that something is wrong with the activity and post a few videos of an out of control dog barking and biting.

BW , sad you make a comment not knowing me , my GS . Yes, I have trained better than National Level. I have trained to qualify my GS for World Sch Competition , had trained police canines, had also several SL GS to show in Germany too .

Respectfully I ask . whoever is interested in answering . Can anyone tell me how training or learning theory has changed in 60 years that makes the situation of training and teaching a Companion GS so much different compared to a high / low competition sport, or real life GS ? Did I miss something ? Is not a "sit at heel , a sit at heel " . Are they taught with different learning theory rules ? Is not a long down with everything possible around the dog , under any circumstance in life still a long down? A puppy 20 weeks old I teach a long down and start that being out of sight. A novice , yes I am understanding , but if you are telling me you compete Nationally and /or World and this is hard for you ... I have no more to say/write.

No offense intended , No attitude intended. If you compete high level and are telling me it is hard for you , ok , I'll accept that . But please think about not knowing me and my GS and telling me that teaching a canine is so hard for me, that's all I , as a gentleman ask.

On a friendly note , I leave it at that except:

Centurian, I am a novice, so I have to ask, how do you teach a puppy 20 weeks old a long down and START that being out of sight? How does your puppy understand the meaning of the command?

Even a person who doesn't understand English won't be able to realize the meaning of those words without some kinds of gestures or a translation.

Surely, you haven't started secretly breeding GSDs who understand English from birth?!!

What, the puppies' English is better than Centurian's is ? JK

Yeah...I'm sure you've made the world team multiple times. Highly believable. Especially when you talk about how easy it was for you.

Hund .. thank you . If you can state that my English is not great , I take that as a very high compliment. That probably means , as I have intended , that most people have to read my posts more than once in order to understand them . And you are right , our dogs are better communicators than we ALL are :-).

Swarnenadu : My first paragraph in this post is the essence of what you are asking. I simply communicate to the dog . As a matter Swarn when I teach , most often I never ever ever say a word to the dog. If you are new , I tell you certain concepts .
Set the context of what you are trying to say and to teach the dog up so that concept or lesson to be taught is clear. In doing so I construct the context or situation so that there only remains one option of behavior that you want the dog to choose. I accent the word 'choose' because we know if the dog decides and if the dog is successful reaching it's motivations , that behavior will be repeated by the dog itself and when 'conditioned via repitition ' becomes solid & reliable. To add , the dog will offer the behavior itself , therefore I don't have to command the dog for if it decides to behave a certain way , then all my role is to allow the pup or dog to perform. That is the dog wants to do something more than I want it to do it. That is just about all behaviors . sit , down , come , out , jump , bark. Dogs choose what to do when they can predict the results they want , another key.
The other notion is that ALL behaviors in life , have a clearly defined beginning and a clearly defined end point. That needs to be communicated to the dog too. The end point is a cue , verbal or non verbal from you that the has finished or can finish that behavior. My communicated end point is a release by the word 'OK".
Start by teaching the pup to sit . [ and only a sit like a statue]. some people use aids like a square box to put the pup in , I use my L shaped kitchen counters with the pup in the corner , or a use a stairwell platform . The notion is that i take away the opportunity and the possiblity that the pup can move in certain directions. At dinner time , the need for the pup to eat . I lure the pup into a sit directly in front and keep continously feeding a kibble. Do this until the pup stays. still . Next - then I do the same continous feeding but still toe to toe right in front i pull my hand a split second away after feeding 1 kibble then right back again. this teaches the pup to start to be patient for it's need the food. Next pull away and just slightly extend the time before it gets another piece of for to 1/2 sec. next phase same but 1 second. The lesson should be learned that 1.pup hold your position and 2. pup be patient for there is no need to move , anticipate. KEY : I never ever let the pup or dog think or have a reason to move **. All this done without a word spoken by me. Another key: if the pup accidently moves , i never make issue of it . I just calmly , with fun , re set the situation and pup .
When the sits are solid I move to the next step. Teaching the pup to want to hold it's position when I move. to teach what the pup to predict what happens when i move. Toe to toe in front of the pup sitting, i feed continously again , but as I feed I do 1/4 rotation with my body to the right 1/2 second and then back to the pup. repeat , to the left. Also continuos feeding I take from toe to toe and perhaps now place 1 foot , 8 inches back . then repeat left foot. The key is with my movement to use the continuos feeding to teach the pup that it's interest is to still hold it's position. I always access the pups progress . When the pup is solid with his , now right in front of the pup I hold my hand continous feeding and quickly as I try continous feeding make a circle right in front and continue feeding. I mix this up with, being in front , now the right foot moving 1 foot out laterally as I stand in front of the pup then back standing in front. left foot laterally back in front. So now the pup has learned to hold it's position , different pictures in the dog's mind of movement , in toe to ,toe close proximity.
Next , teach the same , with the picture in the dog's mind of me going away . Toe to toe in front , kibble to the nose , 1 foot slide one foot straight back , then immediately back to the dog. I stabilize the dog from moving , give it a reason not to move , take away its need to move/follow by holding and giving the food as I am going away , am away for split second, and coming back. The other mental picture I create for the dog to aid in predicting , is " that I always always always return" . This takes away the dog's motivation to want to follow , takes away the dog later anticpating once placed . This helps when you later l;eave the dog for a long recall. I am telling it what ,to expect and to predict by always returning. Late after foundation the dog learns , oh the release can be when he is far away . But in the learning phase I am absolute and 100% consistant with what I teach . I never ever ever ever call a dog out of a position . I never teach a dog to leave a position , in the teaching phase. That way , the thought never ever enters the dog's mind. Hence with working with distractions I simply remind , help the dog with this concept as a ingrained mental expectation.
So , I extend the time and distance in what i have written . I will add things like twirling around as I come back or leave . go to the right or left as i leave and come back . I will jump in place as I come back . But not until I have slowly instilled the sit , i come back concept 100% solid that i know looking into the dog's eyes what it is going to do .
Swarn. I described this because , if you add another variable , then in the dog's mind the context to the dog is different. It may be the same in yours , but not the dog's . Each thing you did up to know in the dog's head it is a different sit. Until the dog grasps the concept with all these different generalizations. In the learning phase a sit in your kitchen is different than a sit at WalMart.Sop don't forget to do each aspect of the sit different places. Out of sight- If your dog cannot sit with you in sight 100% rock solid then you cannot expect the dog to sit for you out of sight.
Sit out of sight: Swarn , now you go back to how you initially taught the sit. My wash room is next to my kitchen , So I place the pup in the kitchen at the washroom door's threshold such that I can enter the room and go out of sight. OK back to fundamentals place the pup , kibble to nose holding and continously feeding pup as I go 1 foot through the threshold , maybe 1/4 my body , 1/4 second back to pup. Repeat . Repeat. Then I progress until just my arm is in the pups view. Do you see the picture I am creating for the pup ? And what has the pup learned that this is a the basis of this DIFFERENT BEHAVIOR ' I come back' , I come back , I come back. When I see this conditioned in the pup i next go all the way for for 1/4 second right back to the pup before it moves . with progress I simply extend the time left. The biggest mistake in training is DOING TO MUCH TO FAST. Do not be impulsive with any step until the dog is ready . When is it ready ? When you know with your eyes closed and I mean with your eyes closed , that your dog will execute the behavior to the point you taught . Also generalize the behavior to anywhere [ safely] , any time , any place. My training session sometimes are 30 seconds , that's it , sometimes 5 minutes that is it. I never incorporate boredem , teaching is FUN for me and the dog. It is not a command , not a ritual .When do I use a word , most often when a behavior becomes 100% established or if it is a chained behavior , then perhaps along the way of the chain I give associated verbal cues. So when I see the sit 100& reliable then I associate the word sit. I don't command sit. I don't command my dogs. I place a permission to perform , a requirement and responsibility onto them which they invite.
Hope this helps