Environmental / Civil Training. - Page 4

Centurian, I get what you are describing, I really do; but two points occur to me about this pup in the 'long Down, out of sight': 1 The vast majority of dog people ( and I do not exempt myself) would have some difficulty with the patience in communicating with, and placing trust IN, their pup, in order to do this as well as you describe. 2 Dogs being dogs, no matter what, however well your pup trusts you to return and reward (so has no reason to move), what about proofing against external distractions ? e.g. some other dog gets up and mosies over to yours and disturbs it / encourages yours to get up and play ? Or something across the field (cat / rabbit / wind-blown paper) distracts your puppy ?

All problems which could be encountered with this exercise. And if they occur, do they not somewhat undermine your method ?

Hund Thank you for your post
My reply consists of emphasizing the fact if we wish to teach children and dogs a prerequisite is for us to have patience. Along with that is a sense of calmness. This took me time to learn and master. Everybody has different ability levels. But what I write can be very easily learned by someone who never ever train the dog before.

Another comment that I make is that when we teach children and dogs ,   the expectations that we place or fail to place upon them , they are the exact expectations that we will get or fail to get from them . I teach people that if you don't think you dog will do something, then it won't. I can't put this into writing, but in teaching,  your persona and projection,  is as valuable as , you or what you are wishing to teach. If you think for a moment, the dog can't learn something and perform  failed expectations   is what  the dog senses . That is what they will offer , failure to perform.  You would be surprised when I work with people on their attitude , how much in an abstract way thier changed attitude  effects and affects their  end result and interacting with their dog !

       One small notion I want to clear up when I used Kibble in my description that Kibble  was not a reward. Not semantics, but the use of food is totally conceptually different. The food is used as a communication device to aid the dog to understand to hold this position. You are not rewarding* a dog for holding  the position. The food is a guide and  tells the dog, foremost, what is in it's best interest, What is the better of two choices, which are to move on not to move.

       To address distractions:  I tell you that when I train puppies I use no leash or collar. In the example I told you that I do this in my kitchen. Every schutzhund or ring ob scenario I start by teaching in the kitchen. That is to say it's my responsibility to control the situation and to set the puppy up that no matter what , the only outcome is the successful one that I want. Teaching a task with distractions can be a whole different topic. And you know there are do's and don't in teaching with a distraction . That i keep simple here , but it is suffice to say that you never put a dog into a position where you know it might  fail . Never ever ! Teaching to ignore  animals is a teacching in and of itself. Each animal the dog has to ingore , has to be taught  by and of itself . If you want to teachthe dog to ignore cats , that is different and independent than teaching the dog  to ignore squirrels and has to be taught as another seperate lesson . Same with chipmunls , deer and so and so on.  Teaching  using distractions makes a  lesson learned by a dog a totally different   concept to teach as opoosed to without the distraction. The teaching of 'using to teach with distractions' is a totally different concept and discussion .   

       All teaching has an explaining phase and a proofing phase . So sometimes it is just lacking common sense to try to proof a behavior with distractions when the intial lesson is not understood or 100% learned. If we use distractions , the distraction itself has to be of a certain level of frequency and intensity such that it is within the capability of the animal to be able to learn to dismiss it.  There is a qualitative and quantatitive use of distractions in teaching. So this is unreasonable ,  to take a rabbit , this  type of distraction , and place it in front of a puppy / dog while teaching a lesson and at the same time try to teach the animal to not chase that  rabbitt.  That is two different modalities. In initial learning ,certain types or  categories of distractions,  oh yes,  they may be reasonable. Sometimes in some training we have to be careful that we ourselves are not the distraction . So this is QT , reply Hund.   The topic of distractions is another seminar . 

        In regards two other dogs: I first take into consideration the temperament of the puppy that I'm interacting with and the other dogs . Some dogs I have to start off one-on-one, however, most of the time I have four adults around me as I'm teaching the puppy. [ a reasonable distraction and fair for the pup's level]. The reason being is that I take the philosophy  that in the teaching phase , I teach with as many qualified**  distractions as possible. Again I stress I set the situation up so that the pup understands what is in its best interest.

       And then let's not forget the fact puppies  sometimes  make mistakes. In this case I don't draw attention to a mistake being made. If I make issue of  something being more than a mistake , then it now becomes more than a mistake to be overlooked.  Then  now what could have been forgotten , now becomes an issue to the puppy. I simply reset, continue as if nothing happened in teach the puppy henceforth what's in its best interest.  I use common sense, if I see that something is going to drastically interfere with me teaching the puppy I change my tact. From my point of view , with my puppy around adult dogs , if my puppy wants to play with another dog rather than interact with me I'm doing something wrong and I better figure it out fast. Perhaps I have to down the other adults, perhaps the puppies not hungry enough, as Duke alluded to about interacting with his adopted dog-perhaps the dog itself has to be a little bit more tired or its energy dissipated in order for learning to take place.

        Also in respects to distractions, I don't place a puppy into a situation such that the distraction is so strong or one that it's not ready for to compete with yet. And we know that the type of distraction in how it's introduced into a context plays a significant role even as a senior puppy or an adult dog is learning. An adult dog, if you haven't taught that adult dog not to chase the rabbit then why in the world would you put or allow a rabbit into the context of a situation that the dog was not ready for. Most often I train without a leash, but I try to use common sense outside of my home for safety sake and to always ensure I have complete control of the context, it would be stupid of me not to have some type of safety device on my dog.

   
     That having been written, I would add that rather than undermine this way of interacting with the dog, I actually use those things to strengthen the learning. Again with the reasonable common sense approach distractions are introduced right from the beginning because part of the learning process is that nothing matters at all, except the task at hand. This is what I want for my dog. This is what I teach from the beginning to my dog.

      Same thing with tracking, first day out on the track I want every possible track contamination that could exist. The only thing that should matter is for the dog to learn to follow the scent. That's what I want and that's what I teach right from the start.

     A footnote:  this weekend. Someone brought a one-year-old pup to me and said to me. I've been doing the obedience but we are working on getting him transferred to off lead. It's a little bit of a task. So I say to him, the reason you have to make the transition to off  lead is because that's exactly what you taught him .  To listen to you, and only listen to you, when he's on the lead. Then I told him , my dog that I currently have never learned that concept on lead vs off lead preference. . The leash , if I put it on him was not used as a control device rather it was placed only as a safety device.

   A different functioning   in the teaching: whatever I expected from him, heel , sit, sit in motion. He was more willing to do than I wanted him to do it. My wife asked me to show him. I was reluctant because I don't like doing demos, I'm not showy. But the fella traveled three hours to visit me .  I took my dog collarless out  in front of his dog that was in the kennel run at my house . I showed him the whole IPO 1 obedience routine. If I asked the dog to heel , no matter what I did circled, turned, step to the side, walked backwards . I could not shake him from heel position. Not because I'm a great trainer, but only because it was a better interest to him. And this is the choice he made  once he got the cue or permission . That he choosed to do. That is true, motivational training in the sense that the behavior because the will to do becomes  a part of the dog himself.  I used his will to my advantage.  That is ' teaching' , not a wrote methodological exercise. [ making a Operantly con ditionmed respose a Classically Conditioned Response , for those academics in behavioral sceience ] . Attitude, your attitude and  the dogs attitude, the difference between training and teaching.

   Oh, by the way, I just noticed the word problems in your post. ? Problems, we make the problems not the dog!





 

Centurian I like your post. I was at a training camp for 4 day only a while ago A very well known German trainer your words match what he explained in the obedience end of things . I make a lot of sense and I am looking forward to reading more from u . Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

Yogdog , thank you .
I apologize to you if reading is hard due to misspelling and sentence structure. I have trouble physically now , with my hands, in typing . BTW my sister's dog was named Yogi , neat.

Honestly, I find it hard to see how I could absolutely prevent the appearance of a rabbit if I wished to train outside, or something parallel happening outwith my control if I am training in a hall / gym whatever. Shit happens. IF & when it happens, it CAN be 'a problem' (& not of my 'making'). Thanks for taking the time to explain further, but I still say there are people who seem incapable of even TRYING to address their relationship with their dog in the way you describe. Compare for example, I've met some who swear blind they have remembered to praise their dog when they get the result they want in a pet Ob class, but they haven't, cos they have allowed themselves to get distracted by what another handler is doing or something. (Why I was impressed with Gee the other day for recognising his omission when calling off Boris from the bitework in the pond he video'd for us). It takes too much concentration / effort for a majority of people, so they would rather resort to 'push & shove' (if not 'yank & crank') even when it is pointed out to them that if you push a dog's butt instead of luring him / showing him what you need from him, he will just push back, and has learnt nothing.  And sadly it is all too easy to sometimes fall into using such methods oneself, even when we know better.  I could give you a personal example of this, but it would make this post far too long.

Also getting owners to recognise when the dog is 'telling' them things, like it hasn't been pre-exercised enough to concentrate, or that someone else's dog is being allowed to be disruptive, you might as well be talking to the wall sometimes. However much introduction & explanation they have been given about how Operant Conditioning works or whatever Training Method is in use.

Even big fans of e.g. Ceasar Milan, having supposedly absorbed info about staying calm in their own manner and body language if they want their dog to be calm, or making things come true if they allow themselves to expect    problems, forget this stuff as soon as they hit the street after Training Club and have to deal with the hustle and bustle and surprises and distractions of everyday life.  Maybe it helps having a Dog Whisperer or the equivalent to SHOW you how its done, but I have my suspicions that a lot of ways learnt of relating to their dogs do not last that long after the programmes have been recorded ! So waddya do ?

Centurian, I understood your posts pretty clearly. Thank you. Please bear with me if I again revert back when I do not understand something, your English is pretty bad, even to my standard. Just kidding.

Again, nice posts, thanks for the effort. Keep it up.

Hundmutter, if I understood what you meant to say, Centurian's process isn't 100% foolproof. There are situations which aren't covered.

But, we have to adapt as we go. That doesn't make the concept wrong.

Hundmutter .. Just , Just All that i can say ... is , do what works for you I can't address your remaining post. I don't know how to write anything to give you advise that you would not accept or that you would not take offensively . In person , ok, I possibly could interact and observe you and your thoughts , But in writing , I don't know if I can get through to you. I don't know if you really can't understand or are just being argumentative. So i can't say more.

     I would have looked forward to working with you and your dog. I know that you would never ever ever think about you and your dog and how you interact and teach it in the same way !

      BTW , I once saw Caesar on TV years ago . I think he is ok , In the interview they asked him : "so you can rehabilitate every dog ?" . Now I know this was TV , so I cut him slack for his reply , which was " Oh Yes , absolutely ". . Instantly I said to myself , that was not true. not true at all. And this is related to many of my posts here on the PDB . No, not all dogs can be rehabilitated . NOR CAN SOME PEOPLE ever be either [ that is a scary thing scary aspect of society]. If the problem is genetic , you will never ever change the dog. Managed , yes , but not ever hanged . I don't know about Caesar's client's success or failure rate .I don't know. However my take on what you wrote may have to do with people that plum get worn down constantly ,trying to always , always , always , day and night , be ahead in managing their dog because their dog can never change. Just a speculating thought for the readers here. Like an incoragable child , they can just wear mom /dad  down, resulting ultimately with a kid getting away with hell.

    Good luck Hund  

Edited comment  .. For readers , Please , use common sense , dogs are animals , I never stated to not use a leash when a situation or circumstance may  warrant the use . Shouldn't have to write this : Pratice safety and sense  in life. 

I'll PM you Centurian.

Hundmutter , ok , anytime galdly