Blue shepherd? - Page 6

Schmutz is posting an article on this in the J.Hered! Awsome! I cant wait till it comes out :) However Schmutz says that they are e/e at the extension locus, but not necissarily that it is the cause of the white color (Schmutz wonders why the color isnt reddish and from what I gather that means not entirley sure.) There's alot of variation on this one...some think it is cd/cd, some think it is cch/cch, some e/e, some think it is sw/sw...lol, more research please (cause it is so cool!) Follicular dysplasia has been reported in the GSDs...thank you for that...but is not limited to liver, but the black dogs as well :) Sue - yup, but horands grandfather wasnt registered...I believe the first GSD registered was Horand himself, though I believe some of his :) I think culling probably started around the mid 30's when the breed removed whites. Just cause I am curious...could the silver be due to the Grey Locus (didnt think the GSD was recessive for this one)? I havent heard of a silver that isnt a blue before...but I am more ignorant on the names of the colors than I am of the genetics that cause them.

No doubt that ee is the cause of white in the Shepherd in that every dog that is white is ee. This is the genotype necessary for removing practically all(most ee dogs have the odd black hair) eumelanin pigment from the hair. What hasn't been discovered yet is the gene resposible for diluting the remaining phaeomelanin pigment and this is no doubt common to all white ee breeds including the Westie, Samoyed, Puli, Poodle etc. Most colours are a product of more than one gene. Yes there is a black follicular dysplasia but this is exceeding rare compared to the blue defect. Being blue greatly increases a dog's chances of suffering follicular abnormalities as the dilute mutation has the effect of clumping the melanosomes so giving an abnormal cellular morphology. There's a photo of a silver 4 week old pup in Willis' latest (1991) GSD book. Doubful this is greying as it works the oppostie way ie, the pup was normal black & tan by 4 months. Greying, as in the Kerry Blue Terrier, is normally progressive, starting later, or after puppyhood.

now I am not saying you are wrong, but I think there is a possibility that e/e is not the cause. Schmutz is the only person I have ever seen push that particular locus as being responsible...in fact I have seen more people talking about the Color Locus as being the cause. Sponenberg and rothschild proposed in their article in the Genetics of the Dog (2001)that white in GSDs was caused by a combination of dilution and fawn (unlikley though I think because of the leather)...they also mention that white coated dark pigmented dogs can also be a result of the Piebald Locus. From what I have read e/e causes a dark to cream colored dogs (phaeomelanin does tend to cause lighter color...but it is hard to distinguish between light eumelanin and dark phaeomelanin), so is probably more likley to be the cause of the cream coated dogs. However...you have given me some food for thought...I have never seen a white dog with a black mask, which in part may lead to e/e being the cause of the white...but at the same time it could be an allele that prevents production of color in the fur as cch and cd are propsed to do. Thanks :) and I promise not to hit the button twice again...sorry about that.

The difference with Schmutz's information is that it is conclusive. MC1R has been sequenced and white GSDs are ee, normal coloured ie B&T or sable with mask, are Em. Same in all other breeds that her lab have so far worked on. E locus has little to do with the shade of phaeomelanin. It is a pattern gene, not colour, so just removes eumelanin pigment in the recessive form ee. Obviously other gene/s are responsible for shade, which can vary from white to deepest red eg Irish Setter (also thought to be ee). Scmutz has already mapped the C locus, so if there had been any mutations in that gene in white shepherds, she would have reported this.

Beetree, the Kuvask is NOT a herding/tending dog, it is a guard dog.

The Kuvasz is not a one dimensional dog and in modern times while the original dogs where reserved for the nobility as guard dogs. The modern dog however is described thus, from the official Standard for Kuvasz: "...Unexcelled guard, possessing ability to act on its own initiative at just the right moment without instruction. Untiring ability to work and cover rough terrain for long periods of time. Has good scent and has been used to hunt game. " From pg. 306, AKC 17th

Is it a herding dog?

Hi Blitzen: The Kuvasz is not a one dimensional dog, and are we talking about the modern dog, or only the original dogs of the 1400's, which were reserved for the nobility as guard dogs? The modern dog however is described thus, from the official Standard for Kuvasz: "...Unexcelled guard, possessing ability to act on its own initiative at just the right moment without instruction. Untiring ability to work and cover rough terrain for long periods of time. Has good scent and has been used to hunt game. " From pg. 307, AKC 17th edition, "The Complete Dog Book", ..."Eventually, many specimens got into the hands of the commoners, but this was long after the time of King Mattias I, when herders found them suitable for work with sheep and cattle. ...According to von Stephaniz, the great German authority on all Central European breeds, the Kuvasz is related to the Komondor, which had been brought from the Russian steppes by the Huns." Interestingly enough, the same book on pg. 302 describes the Komondor as, "Of the three breeds of working dog native for ten centuries to the sheep and cattle countries of Hungary, there seems little doubt that the king of them all is the Komondor." Hmmm, I'd say I still agree with the AKC and the Captain on this. Which would make two white working/herding breeds! Maybe we can agree that it does snow in Hungary? ;-) ps. please ignore above first post, I hit the mouse with my elbow and OOps!

OK I'll agree that it snows in Hungary if you agree that a white dog is going to be damned hard for a shepherd to see and direct during a snow storm LOL. Sure white dogs CAN herd, but how much value would they be in a snow covered terrain? I've also read that white dogs are much more difficult to see during the night when many shepherds move their flocks.

Blitzen, I can see the way you are thinking, and I think the answer is, that really wasn't the herders concern as much as we might think! They prized the Kuvasz's ability to think independantly and they would often rely on the dogs to tend the flocks on their own, so strong was their protective drives. Also a good reason people like these dogs with kids, a big, nanny type of dog no one's going to mess with! And if I were the shepherd, I'd have a damn hard time seeing anything these days. I really do need to get my eyes checked. lol. Perhaps they tied brightly colored bandana's around their necks? And somehow, I think I would be able to see a white dog at night better than a dark one, but regardless, I think it would be the movement of the animal, dog being different than sheep, that would give its position away to me. But I've never actually put this to the test, only I have lived with a minor disability my whole life and it is amazing how adaptable we really are when we want to accomplish a task. ~Deb