Blue shepherd? - Page 7

RE. Blues - I had 2 in one litter. (My only litter) Both parents imported, titled, breed surveyed, etc. highline dogs. From what I understand there is a "gray" shepherd that gets mistaken for blues - but I'm not sure how true this is. I know the blues are often culled in Europe due to litter size requirements (no more than 6) and the fault. I'd guess the culling is also to keep things "under hat" regarding the carriers of the gene. AS I understand it a "true blue" will have gray leather on the nose and pads which is where the fault originates - not the coat color. (Livers have light colored noses and therefore are faulty as well.) Our pup (one of the 2 from the litter) has black leather on the nose which rumor has it makes him a "gray" not blue - but I don't know this for fact. I can say that he has darkened up a lot since puppyhood but is still very noticeable gray in coat, although possessing the typical marking of a brown/red & tan. The eyes are also gray and very striking. I can tell you that if I'd had a whole litter of blues/grays or what ever they are I could have sold every one for twice what I got for the black and tans ;) Seems that everyone who came to see the litter immediately wanted one of the 2 "gray" puppies. -Calvin

Kinzel says the dark dog is more visible at night. http://www.workingdogs.com/ulfgolden.htm I love threads like this, always so much to learn about our dogs!

Kuvas was, and still is in many parts of the world, used to guard to flock or sheep and goats. Similar to the way Anatolian Shepherds are used. As a stranger, do not in any way shape or form try to approach the flock when a Kuvas is on duty without the owner. as for collars, think the very wide, very thick, spiked collars. These dogs guard against coyotes and wolves, those perdators go for the throat first. Forget the AKC description, look at historical use. History channel has done specials on the Kuvas and Anatolian. Very interesting.

At least AKC got them into the right group - working dogs LOL.

Ceph and Pod, Great info !! To touch on the blue or grey subject slightly. I have had several puppies born black, that then when they are about 7-8 weeks old look like they have a grey coat. Toes, noes, nails, and pads all black. Though as they lose their puppy coat it turns a very deep shiny black. Really all that had happened is the puppy fuzz was more like an unercoat as they shed, the mature more adult like hairs were beautiful and black. The puppy coat(soft woolish) was a completely different texture and everthing from the adult hair(longer and more course). To talk about color and genentics though. I can add a little. Many years ago I bred a black sable male to a black and tan female (GSD'S). They produced : 1 blk/tan 2 chocolates (solid) 1 liver and tan 1 rare liver sable :(golden under coat and liver tips. nose and nales liver in color. eyes golden) Now , I did not personally set out to produce that, but obviously it happened. When it comes to genetics , we will never fully grasp the broad spectrum of genetic variation lurking in the past. Whether it be ressive or dominant the genes can decide to make all sorts of combinations, depending on genotype and phenotype. Then you start getting confused as to what really is a dominant trait or resesive. Colors and patterns can be completely seperated from one another. One does not necesarily dictate the other ever. Now, there are colors and patterns that are more often seen together. LIke a saddle is a pattern, but a black and red is the color. You can have a Sable with the pattern of a saddle. ( of different colors ), just as you can have a black and red Sable, with now pattern of a Saddle. I personally find the panda's , liver's, blue's and any other color fascinating, looking at it from the standpoint of genetics. And who really knows but, Max von Stephanitz, what breeds were mixed with the Gsd's. It was 100 years ago the breed was started. Back in 1922 their is a photo of a brindle shepherd in GERMANY. http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://members.atlantic.net/~vcristel/images/brshep.jpg&imgrefurl=http://members.atlantic.net/~vcristel/gsdbrindle.htm&h=357&w=473&sz=52&hl=en&start=6&tbnid=cGTalbqVbHZ_EM:&tbnh=97&tbnw=129&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbrindle%2Bshepherd%26gbv%3D2%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den Now, just think ! If Max had decided that he liked the brindle, you might all be fussing that the black and tan is not normal. The creation of new breed color (or variation) is not really determined by humans , rather by genetics. Though, the human can decided to continue to try to replicate what nature through at them. But, if you disagree with people doing that, then you have to disagree with every breed out there (including German Shepherds of any color). Even Max did not create Horand, rather he tried to replicate him and succeded. Max was not prejudice of what went into the dog as far as color goes, that is why all these variation pop up. He was focused on what the dog was as an individual, and what purpose he had in mind for the dog as a whole. Which was not just a police dog , but one that is as desirable to all human needs as possible , whether it be family, farm, police, Sar, utility, leading the blind, showing ect... For one breed to be so many things, not every puppy is intented to do only police work, or only showing . Just my thoughts ! : )

Jamille, your grey puppies could be the silver described in Willis’ book. Page 40, plate 11. Unusual to get such a variety of colours in one GSD litter. The sire must have been genotype - Ay a, Bb and the dam – at a, Bb Thanks for the link. Hadn't seen that dog before!

No edit facility..... I've said Ay for sable. Obviously meant aw duh! Thinking of 'sable' in other breeds.

Jamille - Great post and thanks for the info! I remember reading a while back (I dont remember which book it was but I think it may have been willis...) that back in the 20's there were two brindle GSDs (CH Donna V Allergeiligentor (b. 1924) and her son Igor of Ceara (b. 1927) ). I think there still might be some that carry for it but it must be incredibly rare at this point. I think its right when the Captain created the dog for utility use...and in a day and age were there are jobs such as SAR, guide dogs, service dogs and others...visibility in the white coat makes sense. So they are not as useless as many people choose to say. As for Pod...still..again I promise I am not trying to be argumentative but I cant find anywhere where schmutz says without a doubt that e/e causes the white coat with black pads. I've been through the website and the majority of the articles cited on the website (I couldnt get the one from UC Davis...would you happen to know where I might be able to obtain a copy? I would love to get my grubby little paws on it) and while all wildly informative, in the article on the MCR1 gene she states that it causes various shades of brown. It may be that they carry the e/e, but some other allele causes the white coat...I am not sure. lol I do have a question with the grey though Pod cause this one makes me curious and I think I must have not paid it any mind when I read through willis' book (but I just bought it so when it omes in I can spend as much time as I need with it :) ) Sponenberg and Rothschild suggest grey at the Agouti locus as Ag (recessive to sable, dom. to saddle, b/t and no pattern). When they talk about grey in the agouti locus they say it is similiar to sbale but causes a pale phenotype with moderate to minimal phaeomelanin expression and then a eumelaninic tip. It is supposed to be rare and they say it does occur in GSDs. Do you think this might be what happens with the Silver GSDs? that would make sense with black leather I think...though I dont think I have seen it published anywhere else...lol, they dont put self-black in the K locus though, which I believe is common practice now so some of the data may be out of date. Or do you think there might be a seperate gene involved :) I think this is awsome and awsome discussion! So much info! :) Thanks !

I haven't been following this entire discussion, so I'm not sure if anyone else has referenced this link: http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/genetics/genetics.html

Hi again Ceph :-) >>>I think there still might be some that carry for it but it must be incredibly rare at this point.>>> I think it would be very difficult for the brindle pattern to have survived, as realistically, the only colours that could carry it are solid black, and white. Brindle expresses wherever there is phaeomelanin pigment (except ee whites), so any GSD with tan would also have brindle if he carried the gene for it. Might be a bit difficult to see on very dark sables and bicolours though. >>>As for Pod...still..again I promise I am not trying to be argumentative but I cant find anywhere where schmutz says without a doubt that e/e causes the white coat with black pads. I've been through the website and the majority of the articles cited on the website (I couldnt get the one from UC Davis...would you happen to know where I might be able to obtain a copy? I would love to get my grubby little paws on it) and while all wildly informative, in the article on the MCR1 gene she states that it causes various shades of brown. It may be that they carry the e/e, but some other allele causes the white coat...I am not sure.>>> Schmutz doesn’t use the term ‘brown’ for the colour of ees, at least I haven’t noticed if she has. Brown in eumelanin. MC1R recessive ee removes virtually all eumelanin pigment but it doesn’t remove the phaeomelanin, which can be any shade from white to deep red. Red phaeomelanin does occur in the Shepherd but not in ee dogs.... or if it does, it’s very rare. So it is fair to say that ee in the Shepherd causes white/cream. The confidence in this is such that a commercial DNA test is provided for white based on the E locus. ee is described as white and Em e is normal colour with ‘hidden white’ ( carrier). ref: http://healthgene.com/canine/C128_german_shepherd.asp I would guess that white phaeomelanin in ees is not a mutation at all, but the normal wild type, with darker shades being the products of mutation at a gene as yet unidentified. >>>I do have a question with the grey though Pod cause this one makes me curious and I think I must have not paid it any mind when I read through willis' book (but I just bought it so when it omes in I can spend as much time as I need with it :) ) Sponenberg and Rothschild suggest grey at the Agouti locus as Ag (recessive to sable, dom. to saddle, b/t and no pattern). When they talk about grey in the agouti locus they say it is similiar to sbale but causes a pale phenotype with moderate to minimal phaeomelanin expression and then a eumelaninic tip. It is supposed to be rare and they say it does occur in GSDs.>>> Ag is the symbol Sponenberg/Rothschild use for wolf sable. The more usual symbol is aw and this is thought to be the ‘sable’ of GSDs. Whether Ay sable also occurs .... we’ll just have to wait and see. >>>Do you think this might be what happens with the Silver GSDs? that would make sense with black leather I think...though I dont think I have seen it published anywhere else...lol,>>> No, the silver described by Willis is unlikely to be A locus as it affects just the colour, not the pattern. The pup was a normal coloured black & tan by 4 months. >>>they dont put self-black in the K locus though, which I believe is common practice now so some of the data may be out of date.>>> Yes, S&R stuff was out of date at time of publication (2000). There was plenty of data to say dominant black is not in the A locus. But GSD black isn’t dominant black, it’s recessive (aa) which is what S&R refer to as Aa ‘no pattern.’ This has been DNA sequenced (again by Schmutz) and proven to be the solid black of the GSD. >>>Or do you think there might be a seperate gene involved :) I think this is awsome and awsome discussion! So much info! :)>>> Anybody’s guess :-) Oh the paper. I’m going to have a look, see if I can find it.