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by joanro on 09 January 2017 - 22:01
US created the Black Mouth mountain Cur, and the Catahoula Leopard Hound...both very respectable working dogs.
You can include the mis-named Australian Shepherd.
You can include the mis-named Australian Shepherd.
by BlackMalinois on 09 January 2017 - 22:01
I have never seen this breeds @ the WUSV caliber IPO -sport working dogs just saying. The high competition sportdogs and most popular dogs from last 40 years in IPO/ LE Police dogs are German Shepherd.Malinois,Dobermann, Bouvier, Rottweiler,Riesenschnautzer created in Europe
But the american pitbull is also a great working dog
by Gustav on 09 January 2017 - 22:01
We have some of the best LE dogs in the world, a lot of them come from Holland, Czech, Slovakia, and many of them come from breeding of untitled dogs in the States. These dogs are working dogs and thus fitting one of the purposes of the breed for 100 years. Because show or sport folks look down their noses at these dogs does not change that they are real working dogs and reflect having traits desirable for the breed.
My point is that as long as real working dogs are being bred in the good ole USA it really is false narrative that only good dogs are titled or from Europe.
Folks think that LE trainers ( not handlers) don't realize where good dogs are or what constitutes a good dog. Some sport folks are so arrogant as to think they know more about the traits and requirements for LE dogs.
The bottom line is a good dog is a good dog and can be found from knowledgeable breeders breeding for certain purposes. And you CANT judge show dogs by sport standards and you CANT judge LE dogs by sport standards.....so again a good dog is a good dog.
My point is that as long as real working dogs are being bred in the good ole USA it really is false narrative that only good dogs are titled or from Europe.
Folks think that LE trainers ( not handlers) don't realize where good dogs are or what constitutes a good dog. Some sport folks are so arrogant as to think they know more about the traits and requirements for LE dogs.
The bottom line is a good dog is a good dog and can be found from knowledgeable breeders breeding for certain purposes. And you CANT judge show dogs by sport standards and you CANT judge LE dogs by sport standards.....so again a good dog is a good dog.
by vk4gsd on 09 January 2017 - 22:01
"...a lot of them come from Holland, Czech, Slovakia, and many of them come from breeding of untitled dogs in the States."
Yes that is what everyone has been saying for 3 pages. Would like to know how far in the peds of those untitled US dogs you have to go to find a titled euro dog, prolly just to the parents more times than not, says $100.
Yes that is what everyone has been saying for 3 pages. Would like to know how far in the peds of those untitled US dogs you have to go to find a titled euro dog, prolly just to the parents more times than not, says $100.
by Gustav on 09 January 2017 - 22:01
Susie, then you know more about procuring American LE dogs than I do....and where they come from. We'll let it stand as you say.
As for legitimate breeders....I'm really sad that I had to learn on this forum that breeders like the Kuhn brothers, Larry FILO, Chip Weiss, Carmen Dugan, Others I could name and myself who have been resources for LE dogs are not legitimate breeders😩.
Oh well, that's why I stay to learn how to find better dogs😉
Thanks!
As for legitimate breeders....I'm really sad that I had to learn on this forum that breeders like the Kuhn brothers, Larry FILO, Chip Weiss, Carmen Dugan, Others I could name and myself who have been resources for LE dogs are not legitimate breeders😩.
Oh well, that's why I stay to learn how to find better dogs😉
Thanks!
by Gustav on 09 January 2017 - 22:01
Vk4gsd....if you say so then I'm sure it's right. I'm certainly not getting into back and forth with you. You're right!
by susie on 09 January 2017 - 22:01
That´s wrong - I still judge show dogs by sport standards, and I still judge every dog by real work standards...
It´s possible because over here every dog has to be titled, and in front of the titles has to be trained - and everybody is able to take a look at the dogs he or she is interested in - that´s my choice, but I am able to do so because breeders are willing to train and title...
no titles=most often no training=most often no interest=most often no quality ???
Gustav, how much is "a lot", how much is "many", and how much of those "many" are scent/drug/bomb detection "only"? Stay real, I met too many American "brokers" during the years.
It´s possible because over here every dog has to be titled, and in front of the titles has to be trained - and everybody is able to take a look at the dogs he or she is interested in - that´s my choice, but I am able to do so because breeders are willing to train and title...
no titles=most often no training=most often no interest=most often no quality ???
Gustav, how much is "a lot", how much is "many", and how much of those "many" are scent/drug/bomb detection "only"? Stay real, I met too many American "brokers" during the years.
by vk4gsd on 09 January 2017 - 22:01
Yes "a lot" versus "many" are pretty vague comparative measures.
I would still like to know how many untitled US dogs Gustav sees going into service have euro titled ancestors up real close eg parents.
Exporting pregnant titled females to the US didn't become an industry for nothing.
I would still like to know how many untitled US dogs Gustav sees going into service have euro titled ancestors up real close eg parents.
Exporting pregnant titled females to the US didn't become an industry for nothing.
by fring on 09 January 2017 - 23:01
gustav,
is sure that LE dogs most be tested in ability for work with nose, ability to protect, for work under pressure, ability to offer to work when not fun but boring, hot, wet, cold, etc., and ability to be agile and make retrieve. in nutshell, it is schutzhund rule designed to do in generic sense. nobody force handler to train and make dog for sport. many breeder here still make training for old schutzhund but go for ipo test to get paper. ipo easier than schutzhund rule, so easy to do more difficult road and breeder still see what he need to see. schutzhund test are clever in design for three phases and make good first stop to test stock for breeder and have line in sand for comparing. but that different for training dog for specific job. nobody in right understanding say schutzhund prepare dog for specific job. and no good breeder train for points, almost opposite and train for test and failure. but it make sure breeder and association have test to select for breed than offspring can go and do good work in many different ways of life.
if you have offer to buy dog from two prospect, same in age, gender, price, etc. but can only buy one and not go see dog. in absence of all info but paper, you prefer dog from titles parents from known knpv/schutzhund/ring breeder or dog with no title parent from breeder not heard from? if you make choice, say, hundred times, how many time you think you win lottery with choice of dog with no title parents in history?
sure, good dog is good dog; sure, top sport dog often not make good street dog; but that not a test issue but selection and development issue. more important, you see many litter in europe where some pup go on to sport, some go to police/army/security, some go to young family or old farm. that is resulting from good test procedure, good breeder using test procedure make evaluate own and other stock, and good knowing and evaluate pup right. i not say schutzhund is perfect but is one of few system to make good and better decision. if breeder not choose to use system right, that not fault of system. as i say before, nobody force breeder to make sport and points and good breeder not do so. also that different from repurpose dog that fail in maybe sport career and try to move into different career with help of broker or ad. is not system failure, is greed and stupid people that make failure.
is sure that LE dogs most be tested in ability for work with nose, ability to protect, for work under pressure, ability to offer to work when not fun but boring, hot, wet, cold, etc., and ability to be agile and make retrieve. in nutshell, it is schutzhund rule designed to do in generic sense. nobody force handler to train and make dog for sport. many breeder here still make training for old schutzhund but go for ipo test to get paper. ipo easier than schutzhund rule, so easy to do more difficult road and breeder still see what he need to see. schutzhund test are clever in design for three phases and make good first stop to test stock for breeder and have line in sand for comparing. but that different for training dog for specific job. nobody in right understanding say schutzhund prepare dog for specific job. and no good breeder train for points, almost opposite and train for test and failure. but it make sure breeder and association have test to select for breed than offspring can go and do good work in many different ways of life.
if you have offer to buy dog from two prospect, same in age, gender, price, etc. but can only buy one and not go see dog. in absence of all info but paper, you prefer dog from titles parents from known knpv/schutzhund/ring breeder or dog with no title parent from breeder not heard from? if you make choice, say, hundred times, how many time you think you win lottery with choice of dog with no title parents in history?
sure, good dog is good dog; sure, top sport dog often not make good street dog; but that not a test issue but selection and development issue. more important, you see many litter in europe where some pup go on to sport, some go to police/army/security, some go to young family or old farm. that is resulting from good test procedure, good breeder using test procedure make evaluate own and other stock, and good knowing and evaluate pup right. i not say schutzhund is perfect but is one of few system to make good and better decision. if breeder not choose to use system right, that not fault of system. as i say before, nobody force breeder to make sport and points and good breeder not do so. also that different from repurpose dog that fail in maybe sport career and try to move into different career with help of broker or ad. is not system failure, is greed and stupid people that make failure.
by duke1965 on 10 January 2017 - 09:01
Damnn this is amazing, good post from Gustav and Red sable,
if one want to improve himself and learn he should listen to people who are actually in the business, wlking the walk etc instead of debating them with hearsay info
@ BW i have a good idea who your best breeder in USA is and yes his succes all comes over the female he started with, but if he himself says it is about the females, why do we only see talk and measurement of succes by the males of that kennel
ask him if he thinks every titled dog is breedworthy, ask him if that female he started with would have produced crap if she wasnot titled
Gustav is right, most dogs in LE is without pedigree and from untitled parents
Good breeders look at quality of dog first and definately do NOT go by fame or scores, unfortunately fame and scores dictate sales so many breeders go that route, many breeders will even tell you they choose famous studs because they also need to sell all pups and for some it is about selling only
if one want to improve himself and learn he should listen to people who are actually in the business, wlking the walk etc instead of debating them with hearsay info
@ BW i have a good idea who your best breeder in USA is and yes his succes all comes over the female he started with, but if he himself says it is about the females, why do we only see talk and measurement of succes by the males of that kennel
ask him if he thinks every titled dog is breedworthy, ask him if that female he started with would have produced crap if she wasnot titled
Gustav is right, most dogs in LE is without pedigree and from untitled parents
Good breeders look at quality of dog first and definately do NOT go by fame or scores, unfortunately fame and scores dictate sales so many breeders go that route, many breeders will even tell you they choose famous studs because they also need to sell all pups and for some it is about selling only
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