Another dog abuse PB Fla.Sheriff s Dept - Page 5

Some posters really leap to bizarre conclusions.

Swarnendu, I don't understand why you felt the need to say that to me about my "position." I said I wasn't making my comment about this case. I thought that was clear. My comment was at the notion of the other poster who said it was DANGEROUS to go 30 hours without eating...simply not true. The Mal looks like shit and I would never condone a dog in that condition. However, it has NOTHING to do with fasting. Fasting is in no way abusive. Do a quick search for "dog fasting health" keywords and you'll be busy for a while.

Here is one. http://www.veterinarypracticenews.com/July-2011/The-Health-Benefits-Of-Therapeutic-Fasting/

Jenni, I thought I was being pretty clear when I requested you to clear your position.

Your comment that fasting for a day is beneficial in reply to another posters comment about fasting for more than 30 hours being harmful, was misleading. Nobody at that point was saying that fasting for 24 hours was harmful. Moreover, you declared to refrain from commenting about fasting for 60 hours every week.

So, what is your position? Fasting for how many hours? At what interval? Fixed or intermittent?

I am well aware of the research on Labrador Retrievers (70% feeding lifelong increasing the life expectancy by two years) that you wanted me to study. Here’s my take on that finding.
• You won’t underfeed your GSD by 30% during the growth period of the first 18
months.
• You won’t underfeed your GSD by 30% during the bulking up period of the next 18
months.
• You will start underfeeding at 3 years and continue.
• You’ll start seeing the benefits from the half way mark i.e. (12-3)/2, i.e. after another
4.5 years, when the dog is 7.5 years old.
• The 2 years of extra life is being added to the dog’s OLD AGE, not YOUTH.
• Your dog is spending it’s entire prime life longing for food, and not getting enough-
that IS abuse.

Edited to add: As I pointed out earlier, fasting is beneficial as it has some detoxifying quality, but the same goal can be achieved by eating healthy. So, if you are not feeding your dog junk food, how to mend something which is not broken?  

Swarnendu, really?! Caloric restriction or a fast DAY (a day is typically 24 hours, give or take ;) ) is now "abusive"??? You can't be serious. 

By your logic, when I have already busted my son eating ice cream for breakfast, and I tell him at lunch he cannot have any more, yet he is "longing" for more, I am abusing him? I mean, here he is in the prime of his childhood and spending his days longing for more crap to ruin his health. 

I think people who think it's cruel would feel differently if they took the species' needs into account and not put their own human emotion into the equation. I never feed my dogs at the same time, sometimes they eat twice, sometimes once, some days they don't eat anything but a nice RMB and you know what? It means they don't anticipate any particular thing and in turn, they don't turn into neurotic basketcases "longing" for something that isn't coming. They also don't do that "empty stomach bile vomiting" that so many dogs do when they're so used to eating at certain intervals. I try to feed mine in a manner that allows for detoxing. A dog's body cannot detox, heal, or do many other important processes when it is digesting food constantly. Why do you think dogs go off their food when ill? Not just because they don't feel well- because their bodies were not designed to be digesting AND doing all those other critical processes.  

This is my APBT who has rarely eaten a full meal for a full 7 days in a row his entire life. He turned 10 years old earlier this summer. I assure you, he is not "longing" for food or feeling abused. He is fed according to the biological needs of his species, as best I can understand them and accommodate, given that he doesn't live in the wild...more often in the car, on the couch, in bed, etc. ;)  I am posting him because I think he is in very good condition for his age and I attribute that to the way he has been fed, along with genetics...(and I am also posting because he's my baby)  :p  But seriously, I have had him since he was 6 weeks old and been quite strict with his food and other aspects of his healthcare. I don't know how much you can tell from expression or condition, but he is the first dog I have fed this way and so far, I'm thinking I'll keep doing it this way because his health has been extremely good, overall. By your apparent definition of "abused," Swarnendu, this dog is abused, and has been abused for over 10 years. :/ 

I think that picture is misleading let's see if my link is right now(if it says Boink that's the one)

   I myself think he is just right The only time I think dogs are too heavy is if they are not active and the food they eat just sits there and builds up.

   This is how I have always kept my dogs I don't want them feeling hungry, and I certainly don't t want them having to do anything before they can eat.

   These dogs would rather be praised and ruffed up to a couple good boys/,girl than a hot dog.

   I have not had ANY health issues with my dogs(thank God) and certainluly no hip or joint problems.

  My pups are never crated or even put into kennels

I feel they only eat what they are able to burn

 And burn it they do.I have approximately 3 acres fenced in around my house the puppies makefull use of that.

    I think that environmental causes create more health/hip and joint problems than those inherited.

Proper food, exercise and an active mind goes along way in having dogs that are eager to learn and please

   I can watch puppies develope and use their prey drive from a very early age just by having the room for them to explore on their own

They hunt for mice, frogs grasshoppers using their noses if that's what it takes them to find what they seen.

   Dogs enjoy learning. They really don't t need to be starved to perform.

    But, what do I know. I am by no means an expert at anything.

I do know every pup I have sent out of my home, has been successful at what they were intended for

Good enough for me.

Before we get to hung up on how many hours to go without feeding is abuse, most people only feed their dogs once a day.  If they feed at the same time that means 1 feeding every 24 hours.  If they are late then it could be 30 hours etc.

Jenni I like your idea on feeding times, that is my way.  Never have any vomiting either.

Kitkat I have to agree with you about the environment is the major cause of many health problems with dogs, next is the food that is fed.  I do a raw diet many puppies that I have raised on it have excellent hips. Never have immune problems or bloat.

Jenni, you avoid answering direct questions and then build your entire post on something which I have NEVER said. I NEVER said fasting for 24 hours is abusive, just like you NEVER said fasting for 60 hours is NOT abusive.

What I have said is feeding a dog 30% less than its requirement all its life is abusive.

BTW, a great specimen of APBT. As per your own admission, “He is fed according to the biological needs of his species”. So, you are feeding him 100% of his requirement, NOT 30% less.

Hope I am clear. I am still waiting for your clear opinion on Gustav’s feeding schedule….

Whatever Beetree, Western Rider, or 'most' people do, I have always fed twice daily as a normal base - whether that was at my mentor's show kennel, then my ex-employer's kennel where I worked for 13 years, or my own house dogs. Because for years I have been guided by canine experts who have said, for decades, that two meals daily rather than one is better; it breaks up the dogs day more than one mealtime does, it gives another 'interest point' to their day; and it is easier on the dogs - domesticated - disgestive system.

I have only NOT observed that pattern in the following circumstances:
1) the dog has been fed smaller amounts at more frequent intervals, on veterinary advice.
2) the dog(s) - usually a single individual - has been fasted for 24 hours, EITHER as a one-off, again on veterinary advice; OR as a regular weekly 'fix' for any dog where the health and circumstances determined it was worth a trial. Don't forget that latterly I took on a number of rescue dogs of diverse backgrounds. It was holding such tests that led me to OBSERVE that I don't believe fasting adds much, one way or the other, and would not recommend the sort of week-end / 60 hour fasts being discussed here.

And yes, within each of those circumstances where I was able to OBSERVE numbers of dogs, there have been occasions where one dog or another did exactly as described by ZweiGSD. Even in the face of competition from other dogs being fed with & around it.

The rest of what Beetree asks is actually in support of what I was saying: that (and obviously she is not one of them) many pet owners consistently get it wrong by constantly 'treating' (or just handing over human foods, on demand !) and that is why any vet will tell you we currently have a pet obesity crisis.

@ Swarnendu....what I wrote was the food schedule for a military " training" program when teaching a dog a foundation skill, under the supervision of veterinary services onsight, and supervision of the kennel master.
I personally, feed much closer to the way Jenni does in that I don't feed on any schedule for my dogs or pups. I have bred, imported, and raised more dogs than I care to count, by four months I have never had a picky eater. I have received imports at 8 weeks and full grown, some of the pups were picky eaters, by 4 months that trait is gone. I don't give commercial treats, I give raw food for treats like wings, hearts, meaty raw bones.
I don't pass judgement on things until the understand the reason and logic, and when it comes to my dog's I am governed by logic and knowledge and never feelings or emotions....but that's just me.

Can I just say that I can appreciate the view of both Jenni and Gustav about irregular feeding. I think the most 'rigid' kennel routine with regard to mealtimes I have ever operated was at the Farm; and even then I deliberately varied timings a little once I could control them. Certainly for my own housedogs and for my mentor's kennel, we've had a certain amount of variation, e.g. because a busy Show kennel with dogs and people in and out at odd intervals can find it difficult to insist on all dogs being fed at exactly the same time as each other and exactly the same times of day.

Human beings don't always manage to eat on an absolutely even schedule, and just as we can cope with that, so can dogs if their meal is late a couple of days a week. This is just a less extreme version of what Jenni described. The same principle applies as to when you choose to let your dogs take a regular fast day: provided you ensure their condition is kept up, through what and how you feed, no problem.

I take it from what Gustav is saying that any feeding programme such as described is for a finite period, or periods, while the dog is in training, and unlikely to last the entire life of the dog. I am certainly sure he would not let any dog under his control end up looking like that hat-rack of a Mali !

Yes, the program was for a finite period of time until the dogs are no longer in training and then they were fed once a day as were the other dogs. My point was the doom and gloom scenarios that some were advocating for missing meals or irregular feeding( even up to two days) is much more emotion and personal preference than grounded in reality from my experiences. Being as this dog is also in para military program, the possibility definitely exists that the dog is fine in health.