Does color affect temperament? - Page 3

Gustav, there are biased showline judges, not willing to look at a workingline dog, but most often ( and that´s the truth, I have handled too many dogs, have been at too many shows ) even the well structured workingline dogs simply either are not prepared well enough for the show ring, or they genetically lack the ability to "move"at all ( no training will help in the last case ).

We "prepared" a lot of workingline dogs for the ring in my club, some of them did very well, but some of them genetically weren´t able to learn how to move, and most workingline owners simply were not willing to spend that extra time for a "better show rating"( at least a couple of months, ringtraining at least once a week, endurance training 2 - 3 times a week ).

It´s a combo out of

1. the judge doesn´t like workinglines ( not that big problem any more, became better during the decades )
2. the dog really lacks in conformation ( and a lot do, but the owners are not able to "see" it )
3. the dog is not trained

It´s no problem to stack a "normal" workingline dog into the V rating, but it´s almost impossible to keep this dog in that rating in case the dog isn´t able to move.

"Movement" - the biggest problem in workinglines, be it lack of training, be it genetics.
Lack of training - blame the lazy, unwilling owner ( I REALLY hate it, wasted time )
Lack of genetics - blame the breeder who tried to breed Malinois instead of GSDs

I often feel sad for those "workinglines" handled at the end of the ring only because the owner thinks " showing dogs is shit, I won´t train for this nonsense", but afterwards loudly complains about the rating...

But back to the topic:

As far as I know there is no genetic correliation color/temperament, but as several posters already pointed out, the "different camps" tend to look for different colors, and to the same time the different camps tend to look for different temperament.

SitasMom said: "When I had a club, as many working line dogs as show lines dogs flunked out."

Out of my experience ( and I have seen 1000s of dogs, had hands on hundreds of dogs ) that´s the truth.
Although not always out of the same reasons, at the end of the day the percentage of "weeded out" showlines is the same as the percentage of weeded out workinglines in my country, too.

Btw, Hundmutter I know you were alluding to the general differences and I agree.
Genetically there is no difference in GS based upon color until the past thirty five years?
Phenotypical differences exist in the breed temperamently based on color today, except for the ASL( American Show Lines)
The GSL except for exceptions has a much different temperament than the Blacks, Sables, And Bi-colors. To allege that they are pretty much the same because of " exceptions" is misleading at best and is not reflect by the realities of either the conformation world or the sport world.

Folks in both camps will spin reasons why this is so, but the reality is  reflected in the ring and on the field, and overwhelmingly there are differences based on color today.

Q Man: It used to be that AKC didn't register White GSD's as a separate breed...and in fact as I grew up was told that they "culled" White GSD's...

They still don't. The AKC registers them as GSD's, color white.

Yes, AKC still doesn´t make a difference ( they just mention the color, and as far as I know they don´t even care about the color of the parents, "possible" or not ), whereas everywhere else the "Whites" became an own breed.

The UK Kennel Club is just about to join the trend and recognise the White Swiss Shepherd as the 'separate' breed its afficianados claim it is. How the German VDH came to that conclusion - seemingly not much opposed by the SV and ordinary German GSD breeders - is an interesting question, but as the Secretary to the UK Breed Council recently asked:
"Won't this mean more confusion for the general public, who will not understand why a white dog that looks like a German Shepherd, and actually is a white German Shepherd, is considered a colour-fault; while a white dog that looks like a German Shepherd, but is not a German Shepherd Dog (because it is a Berger Blanc Suisse) will NOT be considered to have a fault."
(Anybody interested in how the WSS/BBS came about should take a look at the White GSD Forum here.)
I suppose that at this stage of the (new) 'Breed's' development, the dogs are still being bred to be more temperamentally suitable for the Showring and as pets. Quite what happens when some people get the idea that they want to take it back to its 'working' origins (as happens regularly with many breeds originally created to do one 'job' or another) remains to be seen.

@ Gustav: "can of worms"!!

Its interesting how the usually regular posters here who go on and on about the Red&Black dogs that are "just Golden Retrievers in a different jacket" are absenting themselves from this discussion.

Hund, as I understand it...
Before the BBS breed was given general recognition by the FCI, countries were recognizing the breed on a national level. Switzerland (the first) followed by the Netherlands, Denmark, Austria, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Slovenia and South Africa....
White Shepherd clubs in Germany (the breed name before it was recognized in the FCI) could not get the support of the VDH. The VDH did not accept the breed on a national level. I've heard that the VDH said based on their rules it was never possible to accept a breed on a national level (maybe Susie knows?), others have said the VDH fell to pressure from the SV. No idea.

Once the FCI recognized the breed the VDH had no choice but to accept it because they are member club of the FCI.

Susie, I think movement and training ( for conformation showing) are a straw man's argument as to whether a GS has good conformation.
Is not the cutting and darting needed to do herding, or the jumping and explosive movement needed to do work, also examples of movement. Actually these movements are,imo, more important than gaiting in assessing good structure because the goal of the structure is to enable the dog to work. Training should NOT be necessary to improve ones structure/conformation,( another straw man), the dog either has it or they don't and the conformation must always correlate with transference to working. The athletic ability of B&R dogs has diminished to point that many no longer have strong working movement because of " excess" in gaiting movement, so much so that they have to be trained to move to improve conformation status.....this is artificially inflated, and has progressed to a point that there is disconnect; with the accepted structure in conformation ring( like extreme length of stifle), and needed correct conformation to do what the breed was bred to do.
So once again, we can agree to disagree, but folks don't have to believe me, go to some shows and trials unbiased; and common sense will tell you what you are viewing.

Gustav, I have to agree! My working line dog can jump vertically 3 feet in the air. I have nose prints on my patio door more than 6 ft. up, and the muscles in her hind legs are like steel!

My working line couldn't even begin to jump that high - her leg muscles are soft and flabby, even though both dogs get off leash walks of 4 to 6 km. several times a week.

Yet a local breeder of show dogs says he's seen "chihuahuas with a longer stride" than my working line dog!

Gaiting should NOT be the be-all and end-all definer of working ability! Many dogs with that super long elastic stride would fall apart pretty quickly if they had to herd all day, or do any other sort of real work. 

I learned in anatomy classes in university that if you increase the length of an animal's leg, you weaken the ability of the leg to bear weight. It's basic physics - volume and mass of an animal increase as a cubic function, while surface area increases as a square. So, if you increase the length of the leg, you've increased the surface area, while the mass the leg has to carry remains the same. That's why an ant can lift many times its weight, while humans can't. And that's why it's easier for a smaller, lighter dog to run and jump.

Gustav makes a point .
" Good " .... conformation.... that is a subjective term good , but the stahdard is a guide. Then again . look how the standard as it is seen and define has changed throughout even the last 50 years. So discussing good is relevent to the time and criteria that defines good .
So , let me say that specifically that good conforamtion once defined hwat that confirmation should be is relevenat to function. A gtey hound has super confirmation as it enables the dog to run with the greatest of speed. So , good confirmation by a GS standard - no . So we cannot compafe and contrast apples with oranges. Thay having been brought to light even within the GS ... there is a differentiation .

I have had top quality working line GS and I have had ans still have top VA quality Show line GS [ black/tan and black/red. ] . However , in today's GS world , even though this is done.. it is not entirely correct for meor n ayone else , to compare my black /red GS to any of my working lines. Because the wl and sl , whether one wants to admit are two entirely subsets genetically of a German Shepherds. That is to say they genetically are a different animal. Oh ya.. they say the standard is the standard.. but they are a different breed in essence. Given that as a fact , whether you acknowledge this or not.. what you believe does not change the truth.

I have to understand that my VA quality GS has been selectively bred to cover the most amount of ground with the least amount of effort with stregnth , power and endurance. The structure is validated by the movement. All structure , whether it is a dog built for speed , for agility , their structure , whether god or not so good is ultmately validated by '[ purposes and type desired ] movement'.

So 'does color affect temperament' ...... YES , within an aspect it most certainly does. [ and this topic is rerlated to the the thread 2/2 line breeding]. Without being able to prove statistically , but from empirical observation over decades , I have seen within the SL the changing of behavioral traits and temeperament. In just about all my black and reds, my many many firnd's b lac k and reds.. I have seen the loos of stress level . the loss of hardness , the softenong of aggressionn . A much higher quotient is sociability and also the willingness to have synergy with the owner. More bent on a higher quota of intelligence and thinking , which stands to reason because a working GS has very potent innate perisposed genetics to the work wich lends the dog to, in a manner of speaking act first and think later. What I am saying is the onslaught of the black /red and the intense line breeding has brought about a correlation of color with certain behavioral attributes in