Does color affect temperament? - Page 4

Gustav makes a point .
" Good " .... conformation.... that is a subjective term good , but the stahdard is a guide. Then again . look how the standard as it is seen and define has changed throughout even the last 50 years. So discussing good is relevent to the time and criteria that defines good .
So , let me say that specifically that good conforamtion once defined hwat that confirmation should be is relevenat to function. A gtey hound has super confirmation as it enables the dog to run with the greatest of speed. So , good confirmation by a GS standard - no . So we cannot compafe and contrast apples with oranges. Thay having been brought to light even within the GS ... there is a differentiation .

I have had top quality working line GS and I have had ans still have top VA quality Show line GS [ black/tan and black/red. ] . However , in today's GS world , even though this is done.. it is not entirely correct for meor n ayone else , to compare my black /red GS to any of my working lines. Because the wl and sl , whether one wants to admit are two entirely subsets genetically of a German Shepherds. That is to say they genetically are a different animal. Oh ya.. they say the standard is the standard.. but they are a different breed in essence. Given that as a fact , whether you acknowledge this or not.. what you believe does not change the truth.

I have to understand that my VA quality GS has been selectively bred to cover the most amount of ground with the least amount of effort with stregnth , power and endurance. The structure is validated by the movement. All structure , whether it is a dog built for speed , for agility , their structure , whether god or not so good is ultmately validated by '[ purposes and type desired ] movement'.

So 'does color affect temperament' ...... YES , within an aspect it most certainly does. [ and this topic is rerlated to the the thread 2/2 line breeding]. Without being able to prove statistically , but from empirical observation over decades , I have seen within the SL the changing of behavioral traits and temeperament. In just about all my black and reds, my many many firnd's b lac k and reds.. I have seen the loos of stress level . the loss of hardness , the softenong of aggressionn . A much higher quotient is sociability and also the willingness to have synergy with the owner. More bent on a higher quota of intelligence and thinking , which stands to reason because a working GS has very potent innate perisposed genetics to the work wich lends the dog to, in a manner of speaking act first and think later. What I am saying is the onslaught of the black /red and the intense line breeding has brought about a correlation of color with certain behavioral attributes in

Gustav makes a point .
" Good " .... conformation.... that is a subjective term " good ", becassue even though  the standard is a guide, in reality somis the purpose and the function of the dog equally [ or should be equally ] impotant. Look how the standard as it is seen and as it is defined for the GS  has changed throughout even the last 50 years. So discussing good is relevent to the time and to the crieria criteria of that time and purpose . The standard could be altered tomorrow making good dogs better or better dogs worse. But would that really make a dog any better or worse.. only by that changed written standard but not so by it's main function. if it could still function the same way. So subjective /objective .. it changes at a whim.

 So , let me say that specifically that good conforamtion once defined and what that confirmation should be,  is relevent to function and the purpose of that function. A grey hound has super confirmation as it enables the dog to run with the greatest of speed. Is that good confirmation, if the grey hound was more to a GS standard - no . So we cannot compare and contrast apples with oranges. That having been brought to light : let's look at the GS ... whereby and  , within the breed there is a definitive differentiation .

I have had top quality working line GS and I have had ans still have top VA quality Show line GS [ black/tan and black/red. ] . However , in today's GS world , even though this is done.. it is not entirely correct for meor n ayone else , to compare my black /red GS to any of my working lines. Because the WL and SL , whether one wants to admit are two entirely subsets genetically of a German Shepherds. That is to say they genetically are a different animal. Oh ya sure ....... they say the standard is the standard.. but they are a different  genetic breeds in essence. Given that as a fact , whether you acknowledge this or not.. what you believe does not change the truth. And logistically given the difference of purpose that should lend to differnce of structure - it is not fair or reasonable to compare the two -- apples and oranges.. IMOp.

I have to understand that my VA quality GS has been selectively bred to cover the most amount of ground with the least amount of effort with stregnth , power and endurance. The structure is validated by the movement. All structure , whether it is a dog built for speed , for agility , their structure , whether god or not so good is ultmately validated by '[ purposes and type desired ] movement'.

So 'does color affect temperament' ...... YES , within an aspect it most certainly does. [ and this topic is rerlated to the the thread 2/2 line breeding]. Without being able to prove statistically , but from empirical observation over decades , I have seen within the SL the changing of behavioral traits and temeperament. In just about all my black and reds, my many many friend's black and reds.. I have seen the loos of stress level . the loss of hardness , the softening of aggressionn . A much higher quotient is sociability and also the willingness to have synergy with the owner. More bent on a higher quota of intelligence and thinking , which stands to reason because a working GS has very potent innate perisposed genetics to the work which lends the dog to, in a manner of speaking act first and think later. What I am saying is the onslaught of the black /red and the intense line breeding has brought about a correlation of color with certain behavioral attributes intensiying and similarily behavioral traits that have been diluted or lost forever. Is this ture for every single blk/red SL GS , perhaps not but the overwhelming majority , YES. 

   IMOp , color in the GS has already had an efect on the GS. Form determines function and function results in the evolution of the best form.. for that given endeavor. 

I have to understand that my VA quality GS has been selectively bred to cover the most amount of ground with the least amount of effort with stregnth , power and endurance.

I disagree, Centurian. See my post above, which I was still editing when you posted. A larger, heavier animal has to work harder to cover the ground than a smaller, lighter one. The GSD used to be able to do a lovely, floating trot where there was a  moment of suspension with all 4 feet off the ground. It's very rare to see that anymore - very few show dogs even show a correct 2-beat gait at the trot, because the angulation of the rear is out of whack with the angulation of the front, and they are taught to pull when gaiting, which further distorts the gait.

Correct trot - fore and hind on opposite sides move together

Typical German showline trot - legs do not move in correct sequence, even when on a loose leash. A tight leash will cause the front leg to lift even more. The trot is no longer a 2 beat gait - there are often 3 legs touching the ground at the same time, as you see in this photo. We either have to redefine what a trot is, or confess that this gait is not correct.

When the leash is tight, the gait frequently looks like this:

In my experience.
Helpers don't like Show lines, owners of show lines are often belittled. Some clubs and some helpers will refuse to work with show lines. Finding a helper to help to get the most out of a showline is very difficult to find.
Conformation judges don't like Working lines. Owners of working lines are often belittled but I've known judges complementing owners of V rated working lines.  

IMO - the GSD is ONE breed, helpers and judges should encourage all owners!

I would love to see the GSD become something in the middle, not all show or all work.

 Fantom76  - Yes, I speak in generalities. These are living beings, each is different. I've seen some show lines that work very well (Elle Rallhaus for one). I've seen some working lines with excellent conformaiton (better than the VA and V dogs). I'm not a fan of over angulation.

Recently I helped ring train a working line, most show line enthusiest will not bother. In the show, he came in second to last, in front of a show line. The dog's feet were very sore after endurance test, so its breed survey wasn't as good as it could be. His breed survey earned SG, pronounced. His owner was so happy she almost cried.

To me this is what its all about! Helping and encouraging every owner to bring their dog up to the best it can be! 

[likes S.M.'s post!]