What to do with cull/wash out - Page 4

Crusty, yes, the dogs from the DDR (Deutsches Demokratisches Republik) would be referred to as East German dogs. Most people who are seriously into working dogs use the DDR abbreviation, too.

Pedigrees on this database are required to show which breed book the dogs are registered with. So, look for abbreviations like CKS, SZ, AKC, etc. if you want to know. 

Not familiar with the 6 lines you are talking about, though I am aware they exist. Hans or Carmen (Carmspack) would be the best one to ask. Both of them are on this forum but neither one posts very much.

Cir was born in 1979...
In case we assume : one generaten = 5 years ( 3 years is more common ) the genetic input of Cir would be 0,39 % by now.
Hettel was born in 1909...0,0000.......

Believe whatever you want - I'd deal with the dog in front of me...

Your dog does have prey ( you told us ), but doesn't show prey drive on the field, instead he shows defense only.

There are 2 possibilies:

1. He does have a nerve problem
or
2. His civil drive is more pronounced than his prey drive

We can't know, but you may.

In case of 1. I'd give him back to the breeder
In case of 2. I'd change the training and most possibly the decoy, too.

Good post, Susie! Yes, the decoy may be pushing him into defense, instead of trying to bring out his prey drive.

Sun, defense in itself is no problem, but the training is way different than training in prey.
It's pretty easy to train a prey driven dog, but it's pretty difficult to train a civil dog.
In case the decoy is doing a good job the prey drive will kick in by itself as soon as the dog feels comfortable.
I love these dogs-prey and aggression- but you have to be more careful than with prey monsters 😎
Too easy to screw them up

"Too easy to screw them up". Yes, especially when worked incorrectly and at too young an age. With a dog that works more over defence than prey (defence is stronger expressed drive), it is a good idea to wait until the dog is mature and able to deal with being worked in defence. Then the decoy can start the dog in defence and channel into prey. Working this type of dog is more difficult and takes a helper who is knowledgeable in this type and what works. If your dog has good prey drive with you at home, then just wait to do bitework til the dog is more ready, if you can.

What tell tale signs should I be looking at to differentiate nerve issue from a more civil dog? The trainers haven't mentioned anything about nerves and I haven't seen anything that really stands out.

I'm going to meet with a 3rd trainer and see if his opinion differs from the others. If not then I'll give him more time to mature and take a break from bite work. Maybe I haven't found the right trainer yet because, to my untrained eye, they've trained him the same as all the other dogs. Neither one has mentioned taking a different approach either.

Just when I thought I had it figured out, here I am with more to consider haha

Susie, just for the record I'm just trying to regurgitate as much as I can remember in case it may be helpful somehow. I just remember the thread where they talked about how the gsd all went back to 1 of 5 or 6 lines but I couldn't recall the importance of it. I'll drop the whole Czech/ddr thing and focus on what's in front of me

Every dog should be trained according to what THAT DOG needs - cookie-cutter training just means the trainers do not know any better or have no 'feel' for the dog in front of them.

You say your dog has prey drive at home but does not engage in prey with the trainers?

What are these trainers doing when they work him, and is the dog more focused on the man than on the tug/rag/wedge? This will tell you a lot about what drive the dog is working from. Video would really help us to figure it out.

My dog is all Czech lines, and he was slower to mature than other dogs that I have had that were more prey-oriented. My dog has good prey and hunt, but his dominant drive is defence. I waited until he was more than 2 yrs old before starting him in bitework, and he was started working defence-channel-prey. His man-work has been sporadic as we do not live within reasonable driving distance to a good helper, and I do not want to work him with a green helper. It takes a good eye and an ability to read the dog and give the dog what it needs to effectively do the helper work with a dog that has defence as predominanat drive.

Yes he has prey drive at home. In training he's more focused on the man than the object however with a lot of work on targeting his first choice is now the object. He has never targeted me when using the flirt pole or tug or anything so there I know he's working in prey - going after the object rather than fighting the threat as a whole. There were times before when he'd go for a leg or shoulder even tho the sleeve was presented. I don't have any video from the previous trainers so I'll see if I can find someone to video it with trainer 3.

Nerves usually show as a weak frontal bite, coming off the sleeve, or even running from the decoy when pressured. The dog may look to its handler for support and reassurance when doing bitework. It may also be afraid of loud noises and other things in its environment (strangers, noisy machinery, etc.) A nervy dog will likely show lack of confidence when introduced to new situations.

The more you tell us about your dog, the more certain I am he's not nervy, just focused on the man rather than the equipment.

A good decoy takes the time to assess each dog's needs, and does not treat every dog the same. 

Good decoys are hard to find. I've been in 2 different clubs in the last few years, and both of them have been through numerous decoys during the time I've been there. Sometimes when the good ones left, they'd fall back on whoever was willing to put on a sleeve!  This resulted in some pretty awful decoying...

So, if you find a club with a good decoy, cherish him, and DON'T let your dog bite him!   (Unless he's wearing a bite suit...)

Ok ladies and gents, a bit of a bitter sweet update today. It's been a long day. 6 hours of driving for a day with the 3rd trainer. We met with the triainer this morning and got some good news. First thing we did was run him through a small obedience routine. At some point (and a surprise to both of us) someone smacked together two pieces of 2x4 or something similar. He finished by having me down the dog while he walked up to us and talked and patted my shoulder etc.

For the bite portion I asked him specifically to do escape bites and he was happy to oblige. Low and behold - the dog will work/bite in prey drive. He didn't really pressure the dog at all for the first half of his bite work and the dog seemed to have a lot more fun than usual. The second half he did pressure the dog and put him in situations to bite from a defense drive. Again the dog wouldn't stay engaged with the sleeve once the trainer slipped it and turned his focus back to the man. Other good remarks here was the dog has a lot of fight in him - he didn't give up on the bite or anything when pressures with the leather stick and when he smacked the dog in the flank he went bananas instead of showing pain and releasing on the bite or something. He just gripped harder.

He determined the dog is environmentally sound, confident in a new situation, no noise sensitivity and that he is not weak nerved. Which he said was his honest guess from my description to him before meeting the dog. He says the dog is not overly defensive. He said the dog has a lot of potential for civil work - meaning he believes the dog would just as likely bite without the sleeve and is more suited towards personal protection or law enforcement type work.

So here's the bitter part. He said this isn't a pet/sport dog. He said the dog needs a strong handler (which you can probably tell that I'm not there yet) and a "real job". In the wrong hand this dog could really hurt someone was the basic warning i got. He had a friend there who is looking for this type of dog and was impressed after watching our session with the dog. After a long talk with the gentleman, with my breeder, and both via speaker phone (also the trainer gave his assessment) - the breeder gave me the approval and I agreed to sell the dog. The ride home was tough - even knowing it's the right thing for the dog. I didn't expect to be sad over it honestly but I am. I do think I made the right choice tho. It happened so quick and I never intended to leave there without him today. But that's my update. I thank you all for the insight and support you've offered me.