BH Training Resources - Page 2

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Koots

by Koots on 04 January 2018 - 02:01

What area do you live in? General area is fine and maybe someone can recommend a club to visit. It would be very helpful to get some advice and training mentors, and to help you prepare for trial day. But the biggest thing, IMO, is for you and your dog to have fun, learn and bond. Good luck.

by jkuja913 on 04 January 2018 - 03:01

The closest club is in NE Wisconsin. I do plan on stopping by on a training day to check it out. NW Wisconsin seems to be pretty lacking in the dog sports arena in general. It was a stretch to even find a CGC eval!

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 04 January 2018 - 07:01

Jim - hmmm, I wonder if SAR is a little different ? In that, in doing the training you are looking to have dogs good enough to actually provide a service (at least in theory) where they can be taken out to find some lost hiker or search a bombed building. And there will always be some dogs that really were 'born to do it', which are naturally talented at the whole process, rather than just a dog who enjoys tracking. Training brings that out. Good breeding doesn't always provide it.

Whereas taking on training for any other dogsport is about purely having fun and maybe getting some competition points higher than others. No other outcome is going to depend upon that, like peoples' lives. Seems to me that an attitude about owning a dog " born to 'work' " in the sense of competitions, bitework and so on, is only justified in the head of the owner ! Life is a crap shoot, you never know that your dog is going to be good enough or that you will be able to maximise what you take from training it.

And by the time you have got to a position where you can afford to look down on anyone else you train with, you have usually lost the 'airs & graces' about it and realised that its hard work. And luck. And that all sorts of dog can make it.  [I'm sure some were snotty about the very idea that a Jack Russell Terrier could be trained to do IPO, but there have been a couple of those that went Sch.lll, and videos in existence to prove it !]

So its good that you feel you can handle all that shit from people, but why should you - or any other Club member - have to ?


by Centurian on 04 January 2018 - 17:01

" my understanding is to start with teaching “watch” or “look” to build the handler focus. After I’ve got that I’m not really sure how to transition that to “heel” " .


JK ... This is easy , the easiest thing to teach. . But first you have to get the idea of teaching your dog by a 'method' out of your head.
You simply related that you can teach a dog to focus on you . I think you mean the dog can sit in a static position and the dog will focus looking up to your face . So if you have done that then you are already 1/2 way there. And BTW , it is not always necessary to start that way with the dog sitting looking at you .

So, What I would like you to do is stop, just stop thinking about training your dog . Because in order to teach the dog you must first master yourself. What I mean by that is that you have to learn how to talk , to communicate your dog . THAT is what teaching a dog is in a nut shell. If you always look to videos , you will never learn further . What you learn is : to look to a video or someone else for an answer. You will never learn to teach youself how to teach your dog !

So what you should be asking , and not the people here [ figuratively speaking] , but what you should be asking is : 'How do I say to my dog: ' when I walk , I want you to walk beside me [ in heel ] looking/focusing on me. ' ... I think you understand that lessons , even for children are taught in steps. You don't go to algebra when the child hasn't learned arithmetic. You taught arithmetic to your dog sort to spear i.e. to focus on you . So now you start the algebra with lesson #1 and only lesson 1 not lesson # 16.

So communicate to the dog that when it moves and when you move , that you want it to look at you . I do this with 8 week puppies. . The pup /dog can be 1 foot away and if I even slightly move my postion and the pup moves it's position focusing on my face , then I will reinforce that movement as the pup looks at me. [ I am not worrried about the position yet, the lesson is for the dog to focus while it moves and I move and that is informal at this point ]. I did not say reward , I said reinforce . I do this verbally by saying ' that's right' and or by giving them their dinner bowl . There is more than none way or multiples ways to reinforce seperately or at the same time . To recap : what I have just said*** to my dog : ' when we move and you look up at me , this is what I want and it brings you to a your goal '. I repeat this over and over and then do this afterwards any time , place , direction.

So we just taught the dog to focus with movement , any movement we both do. So now lesson #2 . Ask : how do I now teach my dog to move with me in a specific postion and focus with me.? ' This can be done several ways but I write one way . I always ,always , set the dog up for successful learning of the lesson and at best I take all options of the pup doing otherwise away. I place the dog between me and a wall. [ this preventsthe dog from swining out and creating habits] .Then I prompt the dog to focus on my face and take a 1 step AND ONLY 1 step ! If the dog moves as I do in heel position focusing , then I reinforce that , and iI also mmediately play with the dog . I don't move that 1 step until the dog is looking at me and I keep the dog in 1 step looking at me [however I can]. THe feature is that I know it has already been trained to move and look at me.

The BIG mistake from here forward : Doing to much to fast. I never ever ever go on to 2 steps , literally until I know I can close my eyes , take 1 step and without lookingat my pup know for sure my dog took 1 step with me focusing on me. I always get 1 step down pat for 2 three , five , ten , is no different than step 1 except more distance. In time do 2 steps , be sure before going 3 , ..... 20. Then I do this without no wall but I start with no wall with 2 or 3 steps at first to phase out the wall prompt.

Hope this helps with teaching the heel in motion with focus.

yogidog

by yogidog on 04 January 2018 - 19:01

And it is as simple as that good post centurion. Biggest mistake people training make is to rush the excise take your time make what u expect very clear always us a lead so u have control at all times. Reward when you need to reward. And when the dog totally understands what u expect correct when u do not receive it

by Centurian on 06 January 2018 - 14:01

Personally I do not teach with a leash or collar . Although I will use a leash for safety sake , I teach my dogs from the beggining , that I do not rely on a leash in the sense that it becomes a crutch as to whether my dog will listen to me or not. I want the dog to listen to me off leash as well as on leash , therfore I condition my dog to lisen to me off leash from the start. The leash does mnot bercomr a controloing device such that the dog learns : leash on I listyen , leash off then I can do as I please. But that is way way way to advanced for many , many people reading this thread to do .

But as far as Yogi wrote , for beginers I will second his/her advice because : [ and is why I choosed not the word ' reward ' ] : Because if you reinforce a desired behavior than you at some time must ' enforce ' a desired behavior. But the biggest key in training / communicating is to motivate the dog to do what you want it to do. That is to say , like it is for children , learning for dogs should be FUN and to them FUN can satisfying in itself . What I neglected to write to JK is that the ' learning /teaching of the focused heel should be fun and something the dog looks forward to doing. Years ago so many people stated to me , that my dogs never ever take their eyes off me [ unless a guard or some other exercise ] . I can be 100 yards away and they still look at me like radar and I never ask this of my dogs . I never ever ask my dogs for attention , because this should be something that the dog offers if taught weell , from it's heart.

yogidog

by yogidog on 06 January 2018 - 18:01

Centurain if I may ask a question if no lead. and u are doing an excise and the dog runs 100 feet away how do u control the dog And how do u correct you.

by Centurian on 07 January 2018 - 04:01

Hi Yogi
You are welcome to ask a question any time.
So I write some principles that I go by to try to explain to you . Please keep in mind Yogi that I do not train by a so call 'method'.
In the teaching pase , I am never ever concerned about disciplining . In your question , what I teach to the dog is that it's best interest is not to run 100 feet away , in teaching it never has the opportunity to run away , it never learns to run away while we are interacting ! I always teach something is a secure , enclosed environment and context. When the lesson is 100% learned by the dog then I can have more open contexts . If I teach my puppy it is in my kitchen .. it does not have opportunity to learn to run away . Same with an adult dog. I don't give the dog opportunity to run away . I don't allow that ' running away ' lesson to be learned . I liken this to : never call your puppy to you when it is far away when you first are teaching the dog to 'come'. I never ever let the puppy have the opportunity to not come to me , Oe when I call it to choose to run the other way. Always control the context and situation !!

I teach a dog : correct Attitude and correct Motivation . This is a specific question you want me to address but this is also a general learning and attitude that is cultivated between you and the dog , by setting a correct relationship. It permeates all that you do with your dog . How you live with your dog. How and what you teach your dog. If a dog runs from interacting with it's owner before , during and after teaching, something is a miss , drastically .
Often you seen me write about teaching the dog self control and developing a relationship. So the answer to your question is a function of many factors ...

I already alluded to the fact the danger of always using a leash to control the dog .That is the dog figures out /problem solves the use of a leash as an obstacle to reaching it's goal . : he dog figures out if you use a leash to control it , Your control IS through a leash or collar. As a result the dog behavior is geared to : collar or leash on ,then I will pay heed and no collar or leash , the dog will not listen if it chooses to. So I don't allow this notion ever ever ever to enter the dog's mind , at least as best I can . The dog does not learn that it doesn't have to take my direction .It doesn't learn the better choice is to not listen to me and to my direction. Put another way , the dog learns that everything in it's life , is predicated on taking my direction to attain it's needs and goals. I accomplish this though management of the needs and the emotions of the dog. I let the dog know who is in charge by several different measures. Controlling it's resources , taking away all options whereby the dog would choose to do something else than I want and fulfilling the needs and desires of the dog to do the things I need it to do. In the case of Yogi's question , the dog leans that running from me as we engage has" In Absolute , NO BENEFITS" to him , his needs , his survival !! I create the mental thoughts that allow the dog to act the way I want it to so that I get the dog to perform what I want. For me to discuss all this and relate everything to you is difficult in 1 post. I also teach the dog that I can discipline it and will without a leash. For a quick examples , one way I can let a dog know that I can enforce myself if the dog thinks about away from me is very simple,,, I can project myself and my voice to the dog i.e platz the dog , or I can throw something in the dog's direction to break it's behavior once it starts. Projecting your voice: people who have a dog that won't out 20 yards away .. they do that projection to the dog , don't they with their voice, shouting 'AUS' . A dog breaking a heel with me , if I think the dog is going out of heel , even 1 step , I can tap him on the withers , or with a finger tap him on the head .. In the 'ol days the Germans would use a sling shot when the dog was far away just to let the dog know that they could reprimand that dog from a distance. Read this in Max Von Stephanitz's Book 30 years ago.

We get into other concepts from your question : such as - why , when you are interacting in an exercise or not , WITH your dog and your dog more so with you , would your dog even THINK about doing anything else but what you two are doing ? THAT is the foremost PROBLEM with your dog running 100 feet away from you . In my eyes THAT [Thinking] is the problem , not so much as the dog running away. Again I reference the Relationship that is constructed [ the construct in the dog's mind ]. Now if there is a slip up ... and we are all human .. Then , if I even let my dog get 10 feet from me when I don't want it to , that is my fault. I say if the dog so much even thinks about doing that , right then and there, when the dog thinks of doing something contrary , I enforce myself. Sometimes that would mean me saying" No , Hier. I substitute one behavior for another behavior. And if your dog does not come to you after that .. then you have more of a problem than a dog simply running away . That is a different issue to boot. So...... The best thing to do , is it to prevent this scenario from ever happening ........"the best way to deal with a punch , don't be there when it gets there " - Bruce LEE. Teach Correctly to begin with .

Teaching : for me the object of teaching is to affect the thoughts , motivations and resulting behaviors of the dog. Everything is predicated on our relationshiip . EVERYTHING . . This is not about 'teaching an exercise'. Sit/stay I never ever teach sit and stay . I teach sit . [ period] A 10-12 week puppy I can teach and hold that position in minutes. not hours , minutes. No leash or no collar. and the puppy will not run away . Why , I show the puppy that it interest lies in holding that position. I never allow the puppy to think about leaving /breaking that position. I purposely start the teaching with every bit of distraction so that the puppy learns to ignore the distraction and that our interaction is what matters. I teach in an area where the puppy would not be able to get away from me or ever be able to be unsafe. The puppy never experiences that it is the leash that controls him , that keeps him in that position and that without the leash I am powerless. The exercise is predicated on the puppy learning that if it takes my cue to hold that position and that it's needs are met , that it can trust and rely on me , that it's best interests lies in taking my directions. etc. In this instance to hold it's position , no matter what. This is also a principle I use in teaching a lesson to a puppy : "No Matter What" !.I incorporate this notion in everything a dog learns. In heeling , you stay in heel no matter what . The punch never comes because we are not in the situation when it would come !

If I teach correctly , I never give a reason for the pup to move and every reason for a pup to ever want to move is removed from it's mind and motivation !! I never let a reason to move enter the pups mind. How do I do that , simple.. I give the pup something else to keep it's mind on , what it wants and it needs . That simple. You would not move if I required it if you know you would get $1000 for your effort. You wouldn't even think for a moment to move an inch !! Especially after 1 time you got $1000 for holding our position. A 8 week puppy figures this out in less than 30 seconds !! If a puppy makes a mistake , I never bring this mistaken behavior to the attention to the puppy because it isn't an issue . If I do , then it now becomes an issue and one that the puppy will remember rather than forget about. . If a time comes that the young dog has learned sit in your position until I say otherwise , and the dog shows me with its eyes or ears that it is thinking about possibly moving, then I can just say " No , Sit " [ assuming I have also taught 'no' too ] . Or I can tell the dog to platz , if it starts to move. Again , if the dog moves out of position , I have taught somewhere along the line incorrectly. This is my fault if I allow the dog to be able to move from the position. So I go back to what I write : always set the dog up to be successful in executing If I am heeling the dog and it leaves heel , then I have taught incorrectly .

In essence I create the mental pictures in the dog's mind ,I create the motivations in the dog's heart that results in it's behavior. I am responsible for everything my dog does.

You have seen me write before : [taught correctly to a dog: obedience]. " Obedience is when you require a dog to do something and nothing else enters the dog's mind and it gladly , willingly , happily and immediately willingly to fulfills your request" . If taught , I repeat , the dog should have no desire to run from and exercise.


So Yogi , if the dog had been taught correctly and relationship is correct , why would the dog even 'think about' running out of an exercise. And if it did , then leash or no leash , why would I even let the dog get 5 feet away never mind 100 feet.. that would be, shame on me .The dog runs 100 feet because ..... simply ... because ..... it thinks it can... [ without repercussions ] . And to add If I allow my dog , give my dog that much freedom when the dog has not earned it , then now I created a bigger problem . You know if the dog has success once running from someone , that one successful event just taught the dog that the owner is powerless. So for those reading, if you aren';t sure about what your dog has learned , the as I wrote for safety or proximity [ keeping the dog close to you , not as a means of controlling the dog , but for safety sake and proximity . Later on if you proofed the dog and you want to use the leash as a communication device , there is nothing wrong with that. Personally my first communication device is my mouth which starts in puppyhood , for I want my dogs to respect , to listen and to respond to me ! No yelling , no threatening , just simply respond to me. Personally that is what I want.. that is exactly what I teach . I deal with everything through relationship.

This is a quick-time answer to a loaded time consuming question which is difficult for me to completely , comprehensively address in 1 post. But I tried to at least give a little input out of respect for an asked the question. There are a lot of factors that come into play about a dog running away...

yogidog

by yogidog on 07 January 2018 - 17:01

Centurain I think i get what u are saying about being the be all and end all to your dogs never letting your dogs fail . The question was a question iv heard asked many times and the reason I asked u was because the only answer that makes sense to me is what I use now NePoPo training system which I have studied for a good while. and had the best success with my dogs and that system tells you to close all doors when training and how to do this is to use a lead so you have control until the dog totally understands the exercise I also do this in an area where the dogs can't be be distracted and can only focus on me.  it teaches the lead is an excellent way to stim the dog and alow the dog to think for himself. Example the dog relises that the release of the stim only happens when he does what I want figures out very quickly.  it much more fun and comfortable to look at me in the sit excise I also do this with no distraction till the dogs undstand what is expected . Just a short post to much to put here and I will never do the system justice. My mind is always open to new learning to thank you for your reply very interesting


Koots

by Koots on 07 January 2018 - 18:01

I was told by a world-level competitor to "never give a command that you cannot enforce". This is in the training phase, not the teaching phase, of course. But the point is that at some time, most dogs will try to ignore a command, due to a distraction or other stimulus, and if you cannot enforce your command then the dog choosing to disregard the command has just resulted in the dog learning that he does not have to obey at all times. So do not give the dog the choice to disregard your commands by always having a way to enforce the command if the dog tries to ignore it. It has been my experience that all good/strong dogs will at some pont challenge the handler's authority by choosing to ignore a command. This is when the means of control/enforcement comes into play.

The example of the German trainer using a sling-shot to remind the dog of an off-leash command is an example of being able to provide a consequence to an ignored command - in other words a type of enforcement. If one does not use a leash at all times for control/enforcement, then the only sure way to do so, IMO is the e-collar.





 


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