Defense training on fearful dogs - Page 4

Yogi I wasn't going to reply but then I thought about the other readers :
Yogi this had nothing to do about a warm up period . First always , my canines lived in the house with me. - off topic , but if I want my dog to protect my house and have value for my house- then that is where the dogs live, not in a kennel . So this dog lived with me , no sign he ever displayed that something was wrong. I think I wrote that he had a small tear. He had been out and about before the agility and the jump was not the first obstacle, for he had navigated a number before then and looked perfectly ok. If for a moment I knew for certain that he was not feeling 100% I wouldn't even been on the field. He moved other than jumping perfectly normal , he never even slightly favored his leg. Why I write this : because I want to stress that we should keep our minds open and really really look through the dog as it thinks , feels , perceives. This is the most important lesson if you do tracking and man trailing that one learns working the dog . Learn to listen to the dog , is it not ? That day that I wanted the dog , I learned , IMOp a very very important lesson. And... if you put a dog on a table backed tied .. I hope you all realize how even more important , from the lesson I learned about my dog's ACL , and as Gustave alluded to , you know that dog . I have tried to highlight that we truly have to understand what that dog is thinking , feeling , and what it's perception and mental picture is within a specific context...... Because I tell you with certainty , people have contacted me through the years about the notion of 'table training ' and also about helpers whether they used a table or not , who messed up their dogs. One helper was banned ever to work a dog again in that region ... You would be surprised how many people out there work dogs that have no FULL idea /Comprehension of what they do ... I wrote before that I have come across , more than once at that , training directors not understanding and doing what they should .. One time in the USA IPO Judge , giving a seminar , really screw up a dog , because he didn't understand what the dog was thinking/ it's temperament... I leave it at that ...

Cent we obviously have a different opinion in how we except our dogs to react when giving a command. Thank you for sharing your thoughts I always enjoy reading your posts weather I agree or not. On an other note my dogs also live in my home as my family and my family protecter would not have it any other way

The first time my dog hesitated at a jump I stopped and took her to the vet, found nothing. Got OFA prelims done immediately and came back good/normal. The dog hid this injury very well. 2 different vets, an orthopedic specialist, and OFA said the dog is healthy in that amount of time and didnt notice any other training issues so that is why I assumed disobedience. I had the same mentality of if the dog knows the command and I say it, it should be done and done quickly aside from obvious injury or illness. This dog completely changed that mindset. My fault all the way, just want to make the point that no one is perfect at reading their dogs.

Centurian: Susan Butcher

O.K. I will just point back to the Kohler methods. Confident/stable dogs set the standard for everyone else. Competition, military/police, personal protection, whatever. These are the dogs that meet any challenge at the end of the leash. they will jerk your arm off to get on the table, in the car, tied to a post, they don't care, just want to fight.

the issue comes when the dog is not so confident/stable. maybe even downright unstable, so people developed methods to force the dogs into defense or suffer much pain. hence the bad rep for the table.

I'm going to say a couple of things that are just my opinion and experience.

1. a genetically sound dog can overcome a lot of negative social experiences.
2. a genetically unsound dog can never be sound, no matter the social. it might be camouflaged a bit.
3. a stable dog can gain confidence through positive experiences.
4. a table is an excellent tool for a good trainer/dog.

that's all I'm going to say on this. I would like to apologize to anyone offended by this long winded post or the paragraphs.

Rik

ooooops , Yes .. Thank you for the correction !! :-) .. Susan . .. Don't know why I typed Karen .. Then again that story happened at least 25 years ago !!
   

  Rik   , I agree, every word is  exactly so    . ... they are  important realizations   :-)

Rik :  .

I have thinking a lot about this thread ...

I want to stress the title of this thread is : 'Defense training on fearful dogs '.

I tried to elaborate on variables as Gustav pointed out. The temperament of the dog ,the context/situation and 'how dogs perceive given ow they process information and have mental images with accompanying thoughts and feelings.

So I want to share this : Not so long ago , my GS's Vet was telling me about his daughter . She was having in arithmetic and just had a time grasping fractions . She couldn't understand the math symbols and the function of fractions. The more he tried to teach her , the more stressed out she became , he said. I said to him , children and dogs they have a barrier in performing , the mind gets clouded when stressed and that affects performance. I added , children and dogs are "VISUAL " learners. As WE turn into adults WE are primarily auditory learners . I said to him : I can teach your daughter in five minutes how to add , subtract , multiply and divide fractions.

He looked at me puzzled , he knew me therefore he didn't even think of doubting what I stated . I said to him simple : show her a banana - that is a whole - 1. Take that banana and cut it in half . that leaves you with 2 half pieces. Then you can explain if you 'divide' that 1 whole banana in the middle with a knife , the result is two halves 1/2's of the banana. One divided by two [ 1 / 2 ] gives two halves . To teaching adding : take the two one half of bananas [1/2 ] just cut , and put them together and that forms a whole, 1 whole. Visually she could understand this. Dogs are much less cerebral than we or our children are .We need to really see through the dog's eyes  and see what they are understanding . 

What does this have to do with dogs:

Took me a long time to acknowledge that my dog does not think and perceive the world as I do . Took me a number of years to MASTER MYSELF when interacting or teaching my dogs. Took me a while to step outside my methodology ways and technique ways of teaching and realize that I had to teach any dog according to it's temperament and how IT best learns. Some dogs have the make up for table training ,, others are far from being able to handle that . Soem dogs can handle defense anywhere , anytime , others dogs cannot even handle defense.


Dogs on a table tied up in defense work : Children that are much more cerebral and intelligent than dogs. Both form mental pictures , have thoughts and feeling that go along with them . Children can easily get confused depending on how they see things or how the dog perceives and understands things. SO DON"T DOGS ! I talked about behavioral constructs [ taking every single behavior option away but one behavior as an option and only one behavioral option ] . As the thread is tilted [ defense training fearful dogs]: what does an individual fearful dog see in that defense situation , what is it feeling above and beyond fear , what is it thinking , and what aroused state do you think this puts a fearful dog in when defensed ? So another thread I mentioned to Juno to have the dog chase someone to help build a little mojo with the dog [ for starters and base line ]. One of the best confidence builders in a dog , the situation that creates one of the best pictures , the best feelings , the best thinking in a dog is : when a dog has chased someone the hell away and thinks that person Shi^^^^ his pants. Putting a fearful dog on a table a and defense train the dog .. oh boy ,oh boy ...

Yeah, two halves of a banana make one banana. What do 2/3 of one half-banana, plus 1/4 of another half-banana add up to ? THAT is being able to tackle fractions ! WTF are you on about, Centurian ?

Coming away from the complexities of teaching basic math. to school children, personally I agree with you: there is NO POINT, and a lot of possible damage to be done, in subjecting any dog - but particularly one that has weaker nerves - to any exercise, including 'table-training' as with the OP's found video, to anything it does not understand and may perceive as an assault on itself. (There, I managed to say that in one paragraph).

Frankly, I'd see doing this sort of 'training' not as 'developing defence drive', but as BULLYING the dog.
And if that table-training or other exercise is being done by someone who is using poor equipment and /or seems not to have a clue what they are doing, that is x5 worse for the dog.

11/24 or 0,4533333...% 

But only in case the bananas do have the same size 😎