Roached backs - spread the religion! - Page 1

Pedigree Database


by SchHBabe on 17 April 2007 - 01:04

Why are we breeding show line GSD's with roached backs? Looking back at the pictures of the Siegers and Siegerins that are on this site, it's clear the GSD breed was not developed with a roached back, and did not appear in the top show dogs until the 80's. Since then it has become both more common and more pronounced. Why are we doing this? I'll make some assumptions about show line breeding... all breeders love their dogs and are trying to improve and advance the breed, not just crank out puppies for profic. Pardon my ignorance as a "working" dog person - can one of the "show" breeders explain to me how a roached back improves the breed? Surely we are not just producing show dogs for aesthetics - no, this is a WORKING breed, right? Let me assume good intent on behalf of the breeders - they have discovered some benefit of the banana back and the squatting rear that makes these dogs better working dogs. So, then why aren't the show dogs displacing the "working" dogs on the podium at the top SchH events due to this fantastic and modern innovation? And then one step beyond that - why haven't breeders of other working breeds realized the advantages that come with a roached back and started to move their own breeds in that direction? All the others have straight backs by comparison - Mals, Rotties, Dobes, Dutchies. I can't find even one with a roached back. Should we not spread the religion? Perhaps call a conference of working dog breeds and educate the Non-GSD breeders? We could have a catchy tagline for the meeting: "The banana - it's not just for breakfast anymore!" Pithy sarcasm aside, what are we doing to our breed? Why are we doing this? Why are none of the other working dog breeds being altering to have roached backs if it is indeed a superior structure? Yvette If the Emporer is not wearing clothes, who will speak up and tell him?


by Trailrider on 17 April 2007 - 01:04

LOL! Well all I can say is "I think" things are changing back to "normal". It takes time.

by Fireman on 17 April 2007 - 02:04

HYENAS with CHOW faces! I don't get it. Someone please explain.

by Blitzen on 17 April 2007 - 02:04

Ouch, I assume Fireman is a workinglines fireman? Actually I agree with you to a point as I do not like the short, heavy muzzles myself and am pretty sure they are going to cause some serious problems in the near future. However, I don't think they are quite as overdone as chows LOL.


by ziegenfarm on 17 April 2007 - 02:04

well, think about it..........the more rear angulation; without modification to the shoulders, is going to affect what's in between - the back. pjp

by Fireman on 17 April 2007 - 03:04

I don't see wolves with roached backs. Mother nature had about 65 million years since the 1st appearance of wolves to perfect the design.Wolves hunt approx. 40-70 sq. miles a nite.A russian saying states "a wolf is fed by his feet". Good design!

by marci on 17 April 2007 - 03:04

The length to height proportions and the longer topline should consist of a long high wither (shoulder blades)+ comparatively short back (Should be straight) and a long and correctly angulated CROUPE... which is being contested for working ability saying a long kruppe will diminish drive... Working lines tend to have broader pelvices and the shorter and steep croups they say coupled with a high raised tail set may have very high drives... acc to the Shawlein site. A long back with poor withers is a No No of course. BANANA backs are produced when a well anglated croup + short back that is not level, is COUPLED with FLAT mutton-like withers (underdeveloped) You will notice working class dogs (ROTTs and Dobes etc..) have a very distinct withers, and one major reason why the FCI reclassiffied the GSD as belonging to the HERDING group is to bring back the shepherd to normalcy. What I know the GSD was replaced by the HUSKIES with a pronounced wither also probably because of pulling sleds. But a SWAYING back or Dips on the back is as ugly as the banana backs. The early KOER meisters equated the back of the GSD as similar to an arched keystone that when you improve the wither and lower the croup, will appear to have a LONGER BACK when the actual lenght of the topline is produced not by the back but by the long well placed withers and long croup... although having a pronounced WITHER may sometimes appear not to have a straight back... I still believe the GSD should be brought back to the Working Group...The only good thing about being FCI classified as HERDING group will somewhat shorten the GAP between WORKING and SHOWline people.. I am still looking for GSD that is not the extremes but functionally correct. If anyone can show me how to develop the wither muscles ..I would apppreciate it very much... Hope no one from the EXTREME side barks to hold OFF my long discussion Chao Marci.. Striving for the GOLDEN MIDDLE

by EchoMeadows on 17 April 2007 - 03:04

ahhh the Golden Middle... the perfect blend of excellent temperament, working drives, good health, and correct structure. LOVE IT !! At least that is my definition of the Golden Middle.


by Sunsilver on 17 April 2007 - 03:04

Fireman wrote: HYENAS with CHOW faces! I don't get it. Someone please explain. Excellent description, Fireman! And here's a perfect example from the database: I tell ya, I don't think I've ever seen anything so ugly, unless it was a pug. But they're SUPPOSED to be ugly! If that's what the Germans are putting forward as their ideal, I think I'll stick with the American show dogs. At least they're nice to look at, even if they can hardly walk!

by Do right and fear no one on 17 April 2007 - 04:04

Okay. First off, I agree that I dislike the roach back (why is it not called camel back, hunch back, hump back, etc.?) look. Secondly, I dislike the too short back legs. Lastly, I have showlines and do not breed dogs. Having said all of that, from someone who is by no means highly experienced with or an expert on the GSD, I would make the following observations: The fastest canine around is the Greyhound and it has a "roach" back, so that would indicate to me that there is a speed advantage to that type of back. The Greyhound, I believe, is also the best jumping, big dog around. Secondly, I have watched those nature TV shows about the hyena and it has been said on those shows that a hyena can trot all day, with great endurance, and the showline GSD has a similar rear end to the hyena, ie: shorter back legs. I don't know if these things were intentionally taken into consideration in the, not so gradual. "making" of the present day showline GSD, or whether it was the usual human "let's make something different and unusual" thingy, which, as most things are, was taken to the extreme. I personally prefer a mostly square, but ever so slightly longer than tall, GSD. Why "nature" would not give a similar rear end and back to wild canines is probably so that they were limited in what they could do, much like nature not giving wings to lions:) Nature tries to keep different living things on an even keel. So that the prey sometimes get away and the hunters sometimes starve to death. Everything in nature does not progress to the point of being "superior", except maybe for us. That is why we rule. P.S., I don't mean to imply we humans are all that great:) Just read some of the stuff on this site and the newspaper, and you will have to at least agree with that.


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