Roached backs - spread the religion! - Page 2

Do Right makes a good point but needs to extend it. The showring awards a dog who can move smoothly for a long time, Greyhounds are able to tip and tuck with a powerful coil and hyenas are able to trot forever with short back legs. Perhaps the "roach" backs have been selected for not for their looks but as a consequence of selecting for trotting. It's as if we selected for 5K runners. We'd be lousy decathletes (working dogs) but would win the road races. I have to disagree with Do Right about evolutionary logic. It's true that a species cannot evolve to have every possible advantage -- each comes at some cost, just as our big prefrontal cortex 31% versus the dogs 17%) uses a lot of energy that it takes from other places, so we are disabled relative to a wolf in trade for our bigger frontal brain. But no species holds back to make it easier for nature to keep things in balance, if that's what you mean. That's not how selection works, except in the most complex, dynamical sense of prey evolving to stay ahead of predators, so no one catches up completely and it appears that each is seeking balance (when in fact each is seeking advantage and they usually end up in balance.)

I am a biologist by training. I also have done a lot of work with horses in the past. I don't for one second believe that the roach gives ANY advantage to the dog. First, Linda Shaw does an excellent job of explaining the mechanics of movement in The German Shepherd Illustrated Standard: http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/Index_Page/Index_Page.htm (I see someone quoted from that already!) What she says makes perfect sense to me. The spine is like a string of slightly flattened pearls, and if it has a curve to it, the transmission of the drive from the hind legs isn't going to be transmitted in the most efficient manner. Second, I look at the natural world, and I can't think of a single animal which is designed to move at speed which has a roached back. Even the camel has a straight spine underneath that hump! Take a look at the world's fastest animal, the cheetah..it's got a sway back of all things! http://www.cheetah.org/?nd=40 And if you read Linda Shaw's description, she says that racing greyhounds have fairly straight backs. It's only the show animals that are roached. In nature, animals that are long-distance trotters all have straight spines (e.g. horses, members of the antelope and cow family, wolves and coyotes.) Why? Well, you have to assume this is the most efficient, desireable structure. Cats are natural jumpers, and the power of a cat's spring and pounce comes from the flexibility of its spine, something the cat has naturally regardless of whether its back is straight or slightly arched when moving. Dog's spines are not nearly as flexible, so man has tried to make the shepherds more effective jumpers and increase the power of their stride by angulating the pelvis and arching the back so they can reach further under their body with the hind legs. That's the justificiation I've heard used for the roached back and overangulated rear. But this mucking about with nature comes at a cost: it puts added stress on the joints, causing wear and tear and premature breakdown. I'd like to see the shepherd go back to the original breed standard. I think Max knew what he was doing. None of the early dogs had roached backs, or overangulated rears. Why have we let this happen to the modern dog? You know what one modern breeder said to me? We were looking at pictures of the early Shepherds, and he said, "Oh, we breed better dogs than that now." Oh, so we know better than von Stephanitz, do we?

How the GSD has changed over the years... a VERY INTERESTING web page! I highly recommend you take a look at it. http://showcase.netins.net/web/royalair/pasttopresent.htm

Hold on a minute here, guys! No one is stepping forward to expound on the VIRTUES of the roached back as it relates to working ability. I was hoping to be re-educated, re-programmed even! I've got my buddy on the phone who breeds Malinois and I'm trying to explain to him what a fool he is for producing those straight backed mongrels. Somebody give me some facts, please!

Wich Sieger has a roach back? did you ever see a Siegerschau live? (a real Siegerschau , there is only one real) I have seen much stupidity but that the layment of the croupe has to do with... boy oh boy

Some coursing hound breed standards call for a roached back - greyhounds and whippets as examples. In these dogs, the roach is to begin over the loin carrying through over the croup. The greyhound standard faults an arch that starts too far forward as do many of those roahces seen on posed photos of some GSD's. It seems to me that the GSD roach can start almost anywhere on the backline from just behind the withers to almost mid-back. I don't think I've ever seen a photo of a GSD whose back roached beginning at the loin and ending over the croup. It's my understanding that a roached back is desirable on a coursing sighthound for speed when galloping (a far different gait than the trot)and in order for them to be able to get their legs under their bodies easily so they can make quick turns and reverse their directions when in the pursuit of prey. The GSD is not a coursing hound, so a roach back would probably not be of an advantage to individuals of this breed. As far as I know, no working or herding breed calls for a roach back; it is always considered a fault. It's all about understanding the original purpose of any breed. A tending dog is a trotting breed and would not need a roachy backline; it would be a hinderance. A weak backline is equally as undesirable I think, but it's been my expereinces that it's a heck of a lot easier to correct a soft topline than it is to correct a banana back on any breed. I have noticed that some dogs in person do not always have the roach as seen on their photos. Do handlers set up these dogs to make them look roachy? If so, why do they do that? They almost look in pain to me LOL.

Well Bulldogs have nice big heads, too bad they can't even have natural birthing because of it. Human intervention can be good or bad. But as I say over and over when you breed to extremes or for one trait you will likely end up with problems. When you have humans that like dwarf dogs, color oddities, bent backs then when they start breeding the Breed Standard means nothing to them. Follow the money and you will see why we have the roached backs. Why do liberal judges ignore standards and create their own? Follow the money.... Wonder why they don't change the standard?

Blitzin-- You're earlier post on this thread mentioned the shorter, heavier muzzled dogs, and recently I saw one that took my breath away. Gorgeous head on that animal. I saw him at one of the recent northeast shows. I mention this because I prefer the longer muzzle, but I have to say--this dog was beautiful. Been trying to think of his name for the last half hour and it finally came to me---Pitt vom Kirchenwald. He had a lovely temperament, also. Friendly to me, very personable, but perked up when the females went by. Had an attitude with another male dog who was also a top contender--not nasty, just as commanding. Very nice dog. You know, I spent the day walking around, talking dogs and observing---but, nothing matters (muzzles, angulation, roaches)once you put your hands on that dog. Everything takes a back seat to how you feel around the dog---and everyone's opinion is different. I came away with a lot of first-hand knowledge that I can use in the future.

I saw a show on Discovery once, before I was even involved in GSD's or saw the "roach" backs. They stated very clearly that if Hyena's didn't have the weak rear quarters they would probably be the "king" and not the lion. There's a reason they are mostly scavengers and not the ultimate predator, afrian wild dogs have them beat by a long shot, and guess what, no roach in their back.

Actually the Rear LEGS should not be short... They are definitely longer than the front legs in GSDs It so happened they are posed by handlers to show the angulation but if their standing normally posed ...you will notice the straight back and the long back legs // LETs just not ACCEPT FROG legs (cow hocked dogs)