Roached backs - spread the religion! - Page 3

LMH, I wanted to go to that show, but couldn't make it due to family obligations on the holiday. I've seen photos of Pitt and he does look like a very nice dog. My concern about shortening and broadening muzzles is the result of what I've seen in my original breed, Malamutes. About 15, 20 years ago many breeders began to change the shape of the heads by breeding for a shorter, heavier muzzle which caused more stop and a protruding forehead. This all led to overly long soft palates, tongues too long to keep inside the mouth when the jaws were shut tight, low ear sets, round eyes, loose lower eyelids we in the AKC world call down-faced, missing premolars and malocclusion of the side bite and the incisors. Now we have a lot more wry bites, level bites and undershot bites than we have ever had and, boy, is that hard to correct in dogs with short, blocky muzzles. If you stand at ringside when these heavy headed dogs are being gaited around the ring, they snort and gasp for breath like a pack of bulldogs. They would never survive for long on a sled team. I have no reason to think that eventually GSD breeders will be not seeing the same type of unwanted changes in their breeding stock. The Mal people made these changes for cosmetic reasons, they felt the judges preferred the heavier heads which they did and still do. Now this breed does a lot more in the working group and has a lot more BIS wins that ever, but it can no longer do the work for which it was originally bred. Most dog breeders I know don't seem to be very good at avoiding extremes. I would hate to see these things happen to the GSD. Most bitches look a lot more athletic and more able to work than most of the males. I'm saying that based mainly on photos and the few hundred GSD's I've actually seen in person. Maybe I don't have the complete picture? If someone gets the brilliant head to bulk up heads on the bitches, there may be no turning back so I hope the trend continues to keep their sex characteristics toward the feminine side of the scale.

the show people have done this many times. sacraficed working ability, even the dogs health, for looks. take the english bull dog for instance. while not a working breed it has felt the effect of the show breeders. since they began breeding for such big heads, short legs... the now all have to be A/I to reproduce. and when they do reproduce the have to deliver by C-section because the large heads of the pups can't pass through the birth canal. selective breeding at it's worst.

I meant to say - gets the brilliant IDEA to bulk up heads.....I am the typo queen.LOL.

Okay folks I have to put my 2 cents in. I am no breeder, just happen to love GSD's more than any other breed (and have lived with everything from Yorkies to Setters). My opinions actually are about the dog world in general speaking to all of the breeds. I grew up with mostly hunting dogs who were used for that purpose and we also always had a medium sized mutt for a house dog. I don't mean to show my age :) but, way back, many moons ago in the 60's my father had a Weimaraner who had PERFECT confirmation. He (dad) was no show buff but was talked into competing with this dog. He won in a few local shows but was pretty much told he would go nowhere because HE was not known and the show ring is nothing but politics. The dog had an impeccable pedigree and all the right stuff but like everything else in this world it's who you know or don't know. Watching the shows I don't think much has changed, there can't possibly be THAT many PERFECT POODLES in this world!! Add to that my experiences working at a kennel that raised Danes. The breeder/owner was as crooked as the day is long and her dogs took ribbons all the time (not to tell tales out of school but her pedigrees weren't even true, first hand knowledge). I'll stick with my obedience/companion GSD's and stay out of confirmation competiion all together, thank you very much!! But let me say "kudos" to those of you who brave that realm and thank you for trying to keep the breed "true", the roach back has got to go. I will be one of those on the sidelines cheering you on because I happen to have a friend in my life because of you!!!

Oh, shoot. Blitzen, I better clarify a little more on that dog, Pitt. Yes, he did have that look of a bigger, more pronounced stop, bulkier head type---but not over-the-top extreme. The breeder would probably like to take a swing at me. Ha! It's a look. The showlines seem to have two camps on a type. One is that big-boned version, blockier head,(which also, IMO, has a smaller, somewhat softer ear and shorter leg). Then we have the other camp, exemplified by less bone, with an elegant look--longer length, leg and ear. Both camps have their fans. (And, I might add, the versions of GSDs that I have mentioned are also just as prevalent in the working lines.) As I previously stated, I found Pitt a beautiful dog, as I did many others. It was a fun day, all in all. If I comment on any other dogs, I'll be explaining myself all night---so I'll stop now, before I really dig myself in. LOL

Pitt v. Kirchenwald, SchH 3 KKl 1 is out of VA-1 Rapi Supra and V-Honey v. Kirchenwald, SchH 1 KKl 1. Both parents have substantial heads (and are Ursus free). Pitt's sisters, V-1 Pippa v. Kirchenwald, SchH 1 KKl 1 and V-Petra v. Kirchenwald, SchH 2 also have strong heads, excellent working ability and correct anatomy. Pippa's daughter, V-Jenny v Kirchenwald, SchH 1 KKl 1 follows the family tradition, as does Jenny's first daughter from V-Tiras v. Roten Feld--VP-1 Xena (the Warrior Princess)v. Kirchenwald. LMH - the breeder sends a hug,not a swing! Gayle Kirkwood Breeder, Kirchenwald Shepherds

Very awkward commenting on individual dogs, Gayle. I just sweated a little when I realized I had offered an unsolicited observation. People can take offense at almost anything. Thanks for relieving my fears of having overstepped any lines. He really is a looker. More important---I just really liked him.

I've been hearing a lot of very nice things about Pitt, he seems to be generating quite a fan base. I'd like to see him myself. It seems there is a split in many breeds when it comes down to working vs show types (for lack of a better word LOL).

Blitzen, no surprise. Kirchenwald Kennels has reputation for highly placing V rated or VA males (in W. German and US SV type shows). These males are typically very masculine with big heads, good bone and good sidegait. The ones I have seen had noticeably very correct GSD working temperament (sound minds and easy to be around but tough as nails in bitework and protection). Very attractive dogs with excellent confirmation and good proportions. One of the very top GSD breeders in the USA with a deep knowledge base and good connections in Germany. Has some bitches that are top producers.

For every working GSD lover : www.iwgsdc.org IWGSDC