USA Sieger Show 2007 - Results... - Page 16

Blitzen, it fine to be a moral person, I as well as I'm sure many others on this List were brought up the same way. But I dont go around proclaiming it as if I were the last of the "vetsal virgins' as you somehow seem to do in many of your posts. Perhaps you don't mean it, but sometimes you come off like Al Sharpton who wants the world to believe that anyone that disagrees with him is a bigot, immoral or discriminatory. I'm old enough to remember when the word "discrimination" meant someone with good taste. To me, it still does. I discriminate with the friends I choose to make and the dogs I buy and breed. Because i love them as hopefully all breeders do their own dogs, doesnt make them best. As the old adage says, "Competition improves the breed", even if its somtimes politically inclined. I wont knowingly enter a show if i feel its fixed. As Shelley did say though, rather than the commiserations of my "friends" when my dog loses, I'd rather have the VA or V title and lose a few friends. You may never have to worry about this since you proclaim you dont wish to compete, but the more winning you do, the more "friends" you will lose. Winning is like a pyramid, its like one man wrote, crowded at the base with all the losers and narrow at the top with the winners. The air is more rareified near the top and the drive home not as long when your a winner. Believe me it beats hell out of losing!

paranshep, Thanks for trying to shed some light on the discussion. You've done a great job! There are those that know little about what they write about and have their minds made up no matter what facts are presented to them. Better to accept that and move on. You can't convince many of these types anyway. These negative discussions by those that know nothing pop up after every sieger show and after a few days they thankfully fizz out and are gone. For those babbling along, be aware there are hundreds, yet thousands of people reading this thread forming opinions of you. What you know or don't know is now known by them. The reason people don't handle their own dogs or grab just anyone to show them at a National event is similar to the reason People that own and train horses don't ride their own horses, or the people that own race cars do not drive them....Handling is a skill. There are those that are better than others. At National events, it's wise to prepare yourself and your program to the best of your abilities. This should include a competent person handling your dog (be they American, German, or otherwise)to present it's best attributes. Yes, but that costs money and lots of it. Those handlers are all little money grubbers coming over here to take our hard earned money. Believe it if you want to. Sure it takes money to do anything. My dog was shown at three shows including the sieger show by a handler that has shown VA dogs at the German sieger show. It cost me a few beers after each show. The circumstances surrounding the award of the sieger title....What's up with this deal? Judges in cahoots or something??? This is a simple one. Do the math. Look at the other dogs in the class and tell me which one could be sieger. Before you do, check some information first. Check the dogs placings at previous sieger shows, look at the quantity and quality of any groups presented, look at the blood lines, and get back to me. We can go over your results and your thoughts right here. The judge being influenced...Hey get this one...Someone thinks Peter Knaul can be influenced. If you have ever shown under Peter, you would know Peter always has his own opinion and if you have ever tried to convince Peter his opinion is maybe not right, you have probably been informed how incorrect you are. There appear to be many that don't see any need for the German influence. Hey, this is a big country. We have our own judges. We have our own shows. We can do what we want, how we want to do it. Why do we need German judges and German handlers? This is America, why do we need the Germans telling us whats best? Good points. We have already done that. It's called the AKC style German Shepherd. DUH!!!!!!!!

Al Sharpton? Does that make you like Geroge Bush, the great spin doctor? Ha,ha, only kidding. We are winning the war, aren't we? The pro handlers are going to have one way of looking at this and those who are mostly outsiders are going to see in it a different light. Seems to me everyone has the right to express their opinions here.

Dog1, what are your feelings on this judge's dismissing dogs as "workinglines" and placing them last in their class?

As I recall there were three ratings given to the working line dogs. A V rating was given to Alex. Haman received an SG and Jasper, Arjako, and Hassan received G ratings. It appears all the dog were rated. I'm not aware of any that were dismissed because they were working line dogs. It appears the working line dogs were judged and received their rating. It's not unusual for a judge to ask the class to leave the ring in groups. He did this with the second half of the working male class before bringing in the first group back into the ring. I have heard Peter address working line dogs before. He commented there are differences between the working line and conformation line dogs. Each dog should be judged against their own type of dog as they are clearly different. (That's not a quote, but what I remember of his comments in IL.) At this sieger show there was an example of what the judge felt was an excellent example, a very good example, and good examples.

Dog1, Good posts. I found Herr Knaul to be quite fair and honest in his judgement. He was actually more open and humble regarding his own thought process than many other judges. When I have shown my own dogs in the past I have had no trouble gaining the assistance of professional handlers at no expense. We did well in stiff competition. When I have a dog or dogs to present at the Sieger show I will most certainly do my best to present myself and my dogs as well as possible. I thought that Herr Knaul actually cut the working line dogs some extra slack, and took the time to explain their shortcomings and that he was recognizing their ability in his assessment. It is terribly easy for working dog enthusiasts to assert excellence of their dog without understanding the nuances of correct structure and movement. Just as some people believe that multiple titles or an isolated high score make a dog a contender for the BSP. By the way, 3k for a top prospect is a bargain basement price, and likely reflects the veracity of the claim. If people have nothing better to do than talk trash about show dogs I suppose they could skip the threads that are devoted to show. Just an idea. Best wishes, Jonah

Blitzen wrote: " Can you deny that there will never be an American bred dog owned by a person of average income and no backers that will ever make it's mark in the SV show ring regardless of how great it is?" ******************************************************* Let us assume that, in this best of all possible worlds, the "AVERAGE Joe" does take such a dog to VA (or a high V). Assuming this dog is a male with good credentials and that he has done praiseworthy bitework, who is going to breed to that dog?? Reality check: certainly not those breeders with their kennel names emblazoned on their truckloads of dogs and with their "team" wearing matching uniforms. Is breathing that "rareified" air near the top worth the loss of friendships?

I've always had a good time at all the Siegershows I have attended. Always managed to go home with something, if not a trophy. Over the time I have come to understand what it takes to show a good dog in top condition. Having a dog entered gives the whole thing an extra thrill. I choose from experience not to house in the host hotel because it is just better for myself and my dogs. For one we all get better rest and I can walk the dogs without myself stepping into a mess. I see the show thing as an "outing" that I can do with my dogs. I never know beforehand how we will do, but we try. My handlers have been in the US always American handlers but this is because I know them and how they feel about my dog. This is really important to me, that the handler likes my dog and is proud of him regardless of where he is called out. Most recently he went at our Regional to the head of his class under the hand of a Junior handler. The Junior handler's first working male she had go V1. I am proud of that. I wish the USCA would do more to promote the youth. It has been a fun hobby. I never considered it an investment for a return. What luck to have a dog that is good enough to be a part of this. The dog may not go VA, but he has repeatedly and consistently shown me that he is exceptional. Therefore the Sieger of my heart. I cannot imagine what it would feel like to breed a dog, train it and compete at this high level. I am now referring to the HOT and American bred dog Arco. I hope that in all of the discussions regarding the politics some of the great achievements obtained at this show are not lost.

Blitzen: Money, some have it and can spend it. Some complain about not having it and wish they could spend it. Money buys so many things, but not always everything. How one looks at the water level in a glass, might be the difference between whether someone decides to enter their dog in any contest. Perhaps deciding if their dog may be stroked or petted by others, as well. My guess is you are young and not yet a mother? Boy have I stories of my "before" kids attitudes and "after" kids attitudes. Flexibility, and adaptability is a plus for survival, don't cha think? You present your thoughts in black in white. Just an observation. Peace to you even if I have guessed wrong. ~Deb

I'm retired, Deb. I don't really care who spends what on what. I would just like to see the little guy get a break now and then, but I guess that will never happen in my lifetime.