USA Sieger Show 2007 - Results... - Page 18

Is this turning into some sort of joke? How many are logged on here under different screen names and now responding to their own posts? I'm confused. Dog1, which class are you referring to with your link to the Sieger results? I don't know for sure which dogs were bred in the US, I don't have a catalog. It would also be interesting to know how many dog bred outside the US were actually entered in that class and how those dogs have done in Germany. I've heard that some of the German dogs entered were not of the highest quality and for that reason they were brought here offered for sale. Personally, I am more than happy to see US kennels have great success with their dogs. Since a few kennels can't carry the entire country, I do wish that there were more opportunities for the lesser known breeders to show and win with their good dogs, but I honestly don't see a lot of experienced breeders trying to help them achieve their goals. It's sort of a dog-eat-dog attitute and "let them pay their dues like I did". Not quite sure why that is, maybe some don't want the competition? I belong to a board that is populated by some of the nicest GSD owners I've ever met, young people who have lovely well-bred dogs from lesser known breeders. Dogs that they worship, dogs that could possible be in contention for some of the top spots in the US. Instead of encouraging these enthusiastic, energetic guys and gals to get out, train and show their dogs, most seasoned breeders have hammered into their heads from day one that - 1. Hire me (or my buddy)....you cannot win handling your own dog and if you try you are going to make your dog look stupid 2. you cannot win with a dog not imported from Germany..I'll find you a good one and even get you a handler.3. you have to hire a trainer to get a Sch title...I know just the person to do that, send me your dog and we'll get him titled for you. They are young, don't want to send their dogs away for training, might not be able to afford a handler plus they are far more fit than most of the "pros" I just saw on some of the Sieger videos. What's so wrong with encouraging a newbie to learn to handle his or her own dog? If the handler is more important that the dog, then this breed is in a lot of trouble.

DeesWolf, that sound like a puppy I'd be interested in buying.

All hail DeesWolf! Bravo. Wish there where more like you.

Trexshep or pananshep (not quite sure which one of you I am responding to), let's not make this about our service men in Iraq please. OK? You grouped me with Sharpton and I you with Bush. Let's just leave it at that. You have no idea what connections I have to the US military. To me an "average Joe" is defined by an attitude, not a bank account. If that's not clear to you, I really don't know how else to put it.

Kyle, You are obviously not in tune with what campaigning a conformation line dog is about. I'll try to pick out some of your issues from your post. The conformation shows and trials are what they are. The requirements are what they are. If you feel changes should be made. There are elections coming up and I can pass your information on to the nominating committee and you can start implementing the changes. Until things things are as they are and there's no need bitching about it here. I think Gayle has the right approach. If you want to raise the bar, that's fine but do it equally. The Universal competition has raised the bar and if you want to show your dogs ability there a way for you to do it at that level. For those that find participating in shows and trials challenging enough as it is, they are probably content with the way things are now. Unlike a Schutzhund trial where a dog wins based on performance under one judge on trial day, the conformation arena is different. There are events that occur around the world and change every minute that affect your dog's placing at the shows. If your dog comes from a line that's out of favor for hip problems, genetic problems, etc., these issues can affect the dogs placement in the end as the judge commented at this sieger show. If a dogs lines are known to produce above average animals, expect this dog to be favored over a dog from lines that are not so successful. Previous placings count. In order top place well at the German sieger show, your dog has to be shown a minimum number of times. Dogs build their reputation as they are judged by different judges. If a dog is a consistent winner and has 10 first place finishes. It's hard for a judge to put the dog #3 behind dogs other judges have placed it in front of. I would use the Nascar example again where the results accumulate but I don't want to compare apples to monkeys again. As far as judges being familiar with some participants and the results being biased. This always pops up after a show where people cry politics. Usually there's something about participants talking to the judge and having dinner with them, yada, yada. Usually there is a judges dinner or reception where the judges are there to talk to the participants about whatever they would like to discuss. This is encouraged and probably one of the best opportunities to gather insight on what's happening to the breed thousands of miles away. If you go to shows you will notice most of the judges are very friendly and know most everyone there. Especially those that have been showing for a few years. So the judges can be friends with everyone. Does this mean there are favors in the ring? Not necessarily, if all the dogs belong to your friends, then you just have to call it like you see it. Remember there is one judge in the ring but dozens outside the ring. If a judge does not place classes correctly their licenses are on the line. Let's take this a step further. If there was favoritism shown to one or some participants. Surely the results would show this. What would be the purpose of having the favoritism if it didn't pay off with some class winners? OK, let's go to the results and see which kennel got the big payoff and dominated the results with national champions. There are 12 national champions from this years sieger show. Here's the list of winning kennels: Wilhendorf Zenteiche Wilhendorf Dei Precision Zellwaldrand Monroe Haus Kolenda Bullinger Stuber Haus Haus Juris Mittelwest Hunt Land So where is the kennel that schmoozed their way into all the political positions? I don't see them. Where are they? Where's the big payoff that keeps average Joe from competing on the same level? You've got to show me what you're talking about. Here are the results. I just can't see it.

Blitzen, Since you are not familiar with the winning kennels. I'll list them here and make a few notes: Wilhendorf (US) Zenteiche (German) Wilhendorf (US) Dei Precision (Canadian) Zellwaldrand (German) Monroe Haus (US and first time national champion) Kolenda (US and maybe their first national champion) Bullinger (Canadian) Stuber Haus (US and first time National Champion) Haus Juris (US) Mittelwest (US) Hunt Land (US and first time bred national champion) As with every sieger show and all the dogs imported, some of the imported dogs are not the best quality and some are.

Politics are a matter of perception. The winners and those looking to build a reputation for themselves are certainly not going to be stupid enough to go on a public list and say that wins at any SV show are or could be "fixed". Then again, when one accuses a peer of cheating and smoozing, I assume they have some compelling facts that substantiate that accusation. The "average Joe" might have a chance, but is that still true if he or she is not "connected" - the right handler, the right breeder, the right bloodlines?

Thanks for the information, Dog 1. These are breeders with dogs that have won their classes?

Paranshep, I am not sure if your posts were directed at me or not. I also don't believe you are trying to insult anyone. But I feel I must share my view on the 'Universal Sieger' competition. My post is not directed at anyone, just my feelings on the matter. This is taken directly from USA's website: Universal Sieger Regulations “This program has been designed to promote the German Shepherd Dog breeding in the United States of America, addressing both physical qualities as well as character attributes as the foundation of the true German Shepherd Dog. “ If this indeed is true, the judge would not have placed a dog that is CLEARLY at least “SG” in the “G” category. This automatically excluded the dog from continuing any further. I am not complaining about the dog not receiving a VA/ V rating, nor am I complaining about the dogs that did receive these ratings. I don't care if Jasper got SG99, as long as this is what he deserved. This clearly was not the case. Again, let me re-state: pure showlines that showed himself very well. He has never been rated a “G” before. Guess what? He is the same dog, and if anything was in top physical condition and showed himself better at the Sieger show than any other event. Never in a million years would I think this dog would receive a “G” rating, even at an event as prestigious and the USA Sieger show. This dog and his incredibly talented handler did a phenomenal job, and there were 'excused' like mere pieces of dirt. Why?? Because the Breeder/Owner/Trainer of the dog had the “Crazy” idea this competition was legit and the organization was actually trying to promote the golden middle? Silly of us to be so naive. This dog was weeded out and black-balled before he even stepped into the ring. I am not just saying that because I am a sore loser. If you saw this dog with your own eyes, than you would know what all the scuttlebutt is about. As for his performance test? Those of you who were there, who witnessed the loud 'POP' on the arm and how he spared nothing on the long bite, know this dog has a lot power and correct temperament. This dog possesses both physical qualities as well as the character attributes we are all striving for. Sound familiar?

continued I too can appreciate a working line dog that is conformationally correct, just as I am also thrilled to see a showline dog that excels in the work. I am not upset in any way that this bi-color working line dog received “V” in the ring. I actually like him. I for one would LOVE to see as many dogs as possible entered into the Universal Seiger and compete at the SchH3 Nationals. It was stated “As the old adage says, 'Competition improves the breed.'” Well, you can't have a true competition if all the other contenders are weeded out before it even gets started. I know this dog, as well as the owner/breeder. She has been involved with Shepherds for many years, and until recently had only showline dogs. She is not a pure 'working dawg' fan, she knows what the proper structure of the GSD should be, and has always titled and koered every single dog she owned before breeding. She cares about both sides, as we all should. And to address the issue of 'petty squabbling' and 'sour grapes' syndrome, she would never be upset about not placing well if she legitimately earned the rating/score. She would say “God bless ya” and congratulate them. I am the one that is squabbling! I don't care if the Universal Seiger is from showlines or workinglines, both should be out there and represented and allowed to compete. However, I have never in my life seen anything so blatantly wrong. I understand the judge is the judge and his decision is final. I'm still just shaking my head as to how this could happen right in front of all the spectators and everything is 'business as usual'. Maybe I just hit the nail on the head. It's a business. Kandi: thank you for writing so well what I am trying to express. I learned a rather valuable lesson this weekend. Julie