Acronym Explanations - Page 2

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by apple on 26 September 2019 - 11:09

Good prey drive in a GSD is just my preference, as long as there is some good defensive aggressive that can be used to teach the dog how to fight. Other breeds like Mals/Mal X's have a much higher level of prey drive that can keep them in a fight. The catalyst for defensive aggression is initially fear or worry, which can be a double edged sword. For dogs whose primary drive is defensive aggression, the nerves and threshold for defensive aggression have to be correct, as well as the training. Without the element of worry in defensive aggression, the dog tends to see bite work as a game. This is also true for some high drive Mals, but their much higher levels of prey and possessiveness can compensate for a lack of defensive aggression. IMO, the Mal has bred away from its original working temperament, much like the GSD.

by Centurian on 26 September 2019 - 13:09

Apple As usual nice post Titles , Pedigrees , Ratings : I look much deeper into the dog . First I do not categorize and what matters yto me is the individual dog. The first comment as many ,many people do know : in every litter SL/ WL . Not every puppy in that litter will be worhty to show well or to do work [ all types of / different tasks ] well .
What I look for is the struxture , I want to see the dog put together half way decently - I don't expect a GS to have structure akin to a greyhound . Working traits : I do not llook simply at prey / defense as you wrote about . What is IMKP crucial , more than important , is , the KIND/ TYPE as well as the AMOUNT of predatory traits , the defensive traits and the expression of those traits that matter . This is why all those accolades are meaningless. To orally or in writing to decribe a dog to me as having a defensive bent is meaningless to me also . To reiterate I want to see the quality and quantity of the traits in that dog. The generalities also tell me nothing - but the dog itself does.
For example , one can say the dog is defensive. But this is no value to me if I cannot see that the dog has discernment. One time I had a GS that someone would say was well balanced prey / defense. To me that was not the the complete representation. One time a fellow that I did not know walked up to me to greet me and say hello . He got close top me andhe abruptly stuck out his hand , to shake my hand and introduce himself. My Pertsonal mproterction dopg wwas sitting at heel . Of curse he had no idea this dog was trained in PP . My dog held himslef. That same week , someone was working my dog , I had him in sit/heel positiion. 'The helper tried to agitate the dog . But he sat still in heel as I told him to "Sitz". The fellow came up to my face and said my GS was a piece of Sh** and that he had no fire.He walked right towards me , just about in my face, and at the same time he swung his hand to my face and twisted his body to turn away . As the man's hand came to my face and the dog see that was 99% a strike , he came up and bit that helper . He yelped through a bite suit it hurt him so bad. Yes the dog was correct to protect me without command. That was what he was trained to do .The point is that with all the posturing , all the agitation, the dog remained calm , cool and collected . Only and only when the hand was coming to the face did the dog interrupt and bite that helper. This was not so called ' reactive defensive aggression' , but healthy discerning strong proactive aggression. This is what I mean when I say : that to describe a dog as predatory ,as defensive , in and of itself falls short , very very short . Not only do accolades fall short describing dogs but so doea also categorical pharases . Again , aggression can be reactive as opposed to proactive , defense can be based in worry / fear , but it can be also based in confidence such as : ' I am in control and I will control " .

IMOP when takling about dogs , I beleive it is best to be accurate as possible to describe a dog and not to place dogs into cliche categories. As I stated I look at dogs much more comprehensively and complexly .

by apple on 26 September 2019 - 14:09

Centurian,
When I say defensive aggression is based on worry and fear, and am referring to an ethological, instinctual, evolutionary and emotional point of view. The first time a dog experiences defensive aggression, the catalyst is worry or fear. Thresholds and training, which can raise thresholds can bring the dog to a point where defensive aggression is confidence based. There are so many nuances of traits that a handler has to try to correctly assess about his dog. When a dog shows defensive aggression, is it reactiveness, protective instincts, territorial aggression. For example, my dog now "owns" my vehicle and will light up if anyone comes near. In training, he is eager to bite the decoy and if the suit is slipped, he will ignore it and focus on the decoy. When I do obedience, practicing for a trial, the same decoy can act as a judge on the field and be close to my dog and the dog is not concerned with him. He has actually loved on the dog before a training session. I will say that I think with my dog, he is on the edge with his nerves and we are trying to push through it. It is limited to when he is aggressively attacked with a clatter stick or very loud bottle curtain. He will either push through and learn that staying in the fight turns off the pressure or he will express freezing or flight. Fortunately, when we work on those areas, he shows improvement each time. If he successfully works through the stress, he will likely be a changed dog, which I will have to handle differently around other people. I agree that talking about just prey is not thorough enough. I like a dog that has a low threshold for prey that quickly goes into prey drive. I also like a dog that can sustain his prey without it waning. A dogs eyes and how he looks and follows a prey object tells you something about a dog. In training for PSA, we have practiced heeling with the decoy cracking a whip right next to my dog and the dog keeps a focused heel. When not under obedience, if the whip is cracked my dog instantly loads up, but we have only used the whip in obedience to build drive and never in protection. To me, that shows some control and discernment, but if this dog pushes through his stress of being aggressed upon, he won't be the type of dog you could take to a cookout and let him wander amongst the people.

by ValK on 26 September 2019 - 15:09

apple
the trained confidence for fight quite easily can be wrecked.

Hired Dog

by Hired Dog on 26 September 2019 - 15:09

Valk, are you getting a dog anytime soon?


emoryg

by emoryg on 26 September 2019 - 16:09

This is why identifying genetically superior dogs is of the utmost importance. The dog should instill confidence in his handler, not the handler having to instill confidence in his dog.

by Centurian on 26 September 2019 - 16:09

Apple ,
Some of what you write we are on the same wavelngth about . There are many nuances to traits . That is my point . I see different kinds /qualities of aggression . I see subtle differences in behavior and as that relates to the make up of a dog. Your statement about the first time a dog expresses defensive aggression the catalyst is worry or fear . That is not always or entirely true. Barking at a door is defensive aggression ... and I have had dogs bark the first time not because they fear or are worried , goodness , they at first didn't now exactly what was behind the door , in the sense that their was a blatant threat . Sometimes the bark was a call simply to summon the troops /the pack or to alert that something is different. Has nothing to do with fear or worry. At some times that bark was actually a warning , not based on fear but the fact that the dog thought it is going to control of the context. That is to say the dog was not being reactive but proactive. A worried dog does not try to run to something that it feels will greatly cause harm to himslef or will danger himself - that would be a pretty dam stupid dog .

When someone comes on your territory , that does not have to be out of fear or worry , can be , but doesn't have to be . That type of defensive agression is not always reactive, it can be proactive. : The message the dog gives is : this is our territory , stay off it or else. A dog threatening before something happens can be either reactive or proactive. A dog warning you can becuase the dog is taking charge , the intitiative , and that is not reactive. Reactive ... maybe not the best word .. because I see a dog responding to something different as opposed to the  dog being reactive to something. And I see with that subtle difference as it relates to temperament . Reactivity has more the connotation of acting before thinking / problem solving [ not the same as but related to the dog's mentality and discernment ]. I want a dog when I look at it to respond to something and address it ,  as opposed to a dog being reactive. Note , at a certain threshold , as you write about , that is to say an exaggerated reaction to stimuli,  is Temeperament Deficiencey . In America , not the European use of the word , Sharpness, is a dire temperament flaw.

Getting back to the topic theme.. Paperwork tells me nothing quantitatively and qualitatively about the dog and the quality and quantity of traits [ the nuances as you write ] are expresseed. I want to evaluate the dog , it's trats quantitatively and qualitatively .. for example social what ??? Is it highly social ,, medium social , anti social , indifferent and aloof ? What does being social mean , when you say the dog is social . Defensive ... what does that mean when you say a dog is defensive , e.g is it high , low , medium , does it take little stimulation for a dog to be fearful , does it pecieve something as threat when in reality it is not e.g Pertaining to the example that  I gave ... someone waving a hand near your face is not the same as the hand coming down to strike you .. So , Again because a dog acts or doesn't act we cannot put dogmatic absolutes into describing the dog. Nor does abbreviations ...


by apple on 26 September 2019 - 16:09

Valk and Emoryg,
Your comments reflect what Centurion was saying about the need to assess a dog in a very comprehensive and complex way. You have never seen my dog work. He is a powerful dog and loves to bite and is man focused. Younger dogs have a lower threshold for avoidance. Defensive training is always stressful for young dogs, especially considering the decoy I work with will never be allowed to decoy a PSA national trial because of his reputation for running dogs. The goal is to raise the threshold for avoidance and we are accomplishing that each time. The dog must learn that when he is pressed with a threat, he should meet the threat with aggression and he will win (the pressure will go away.) Experiencing stress is essential and it builds the dog's ability to handle stress confidently. So Valk and Emoryg, all correctly trained dogs are trained for confidence to fight. My dog is not a nerve bag. It is a rare dog that just comes out of the box as a man stopper. IPO/IGP dogs do not see the pressure this dog is seeing.

by apple on 26 September 2019 - 17:09

Centurian,
So often when I mention worry and fear being the catalyst for defensive aggression, people get the totally wrong impression and think I'm saying the dog is a fearful dog. I am simply referring to the initial emotional state that triggers defensive aggression and the parts of the brain that are stimulated. You said sometimes a dog barking at someone at the door is simply a warning. Warning infers potential danger and danger elicits fear or worry. You also said a dog might bark when someone enters his territory and it could be the dog warning the person to stay off his territory. Why would a dog be motivated to warn unless the dog perceived a potential threat, and a threat elicits stress which is a form of worry or fear. The exception is true social aggression which does not have the components of fear or worry and there there is no risk of flight, but such dogs are all but gone. When I say fear, I don't mean scared to death fear. Many brave soldiers experience fear in battle and become heroes. With territorial aggression, a dog can display confident body language, but again the trigger is worry or fear. Another way to make my point is to say there is predatory aggression and affective (emotional) aggression. Affective aggression in dogs is much more serious than predatory aggression and can lead to the infliction of serious damage to a person. The proper aggressive responses are learned and maintained through training. Territorial aggression is a form of affective aggression.

by Espiritus on 26 September 2019 - 17:09

Astrovan2487 Thank You! The string of acronyms was a direct cut & paste from a trial being held in Ky. The only one I recognized was AD.

I was young, with a Dutch bred Bouvier back in the early 80's. He was wonderful and stolen. School, marriage, children and life intervened.

I now have a beautifully bred, intense 9-week old shepherd and enough time on my hands (and hopefully LEFT since I'm 65) that I thought I might go back to the field. Don't think I'll ever be a decoy though.

Thanks for all your help. Even the philosophical debates were educational.





 


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