KNPV trouble - Page 9

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by ValK on 30 June 2020 - 12:06

hired dog, i don't know why conversation took the turn to direction, like i'm advocating cruelty and abuse of dogs in training process.
i stand on totally opposite position. particularly if that dog destined to be used for attack and defense purpose, abuse, ones, like in video posted by emoryg, absolutely not acceptable. after such handling one cannot have reliable protection dog. the dog, who after such handling would be willing to be engaged and stay in fight should be very aggressive type of "rebelliously dominant" to an extreme.
on another hand - irregardless how tough that dog might looks, such dog absolutely not suitable for team work due to impossibility of handler to depend on changing mood of that dog. in border breeding was specimens like this. all of them did end up as watchdogs and several of them i did know, have been shoot.
as for "tell me, when in the last 20 years have you experienced this" - i have none. the last my dog did some attempts but it was rather passive form, expressed in refusal to obey and backed by growling and showing teeth but didn't culminated by attacks. he was somewhere between 7~8 month of age at that time.
but somewhere previously i already mentioned, since 2000 (the year my last dog Ari from border breeding passed away) i haven't met the dog to express my impression sort of "wow, that's really serious dog". the last my dog Siegie isn't exception.
breeders in West don't want dominant strong dogs perhaps due to commercial reasons and possible liability.

emoryg
the first think jumped in mind upon watching that video were video of an incident with dog at White House ground.
could be that security service's mali was trained in similar manner.

BlackMalinois
in video just a punishment but no any kind of correction.

by Hired Dog on 30 June 2020 - 12:06

BM, I understand what the word hypocrite means, but, you know as well as I do that things do not always work out as we want them. Of course there are others, as you mentioned that have done the same thing and could be arrested as well, but, this forum is not the place to discuss such things.

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 30 June 2020 - 15:06

BM I believe we are looking at a minority of Police Officers or other Dog Trainers who would regularly use the actions shown in Emory's video in their training work with dogs. Most officers might use harsher methods than many would think reasonable in today's world, if we are applying behavioural knowledge gained over the decades, but I think the majority would 'draw a line' and not be making a routine of kicking etc in the way shown. Any more than I ever thought the whole of Essex Police Force's handlers used 'helicoptering' at the time some among them were caught (and disciplined for) doing so, a few years back now.

Maybe in KNPV's case it was quite a large minority of trainers; but they can surely have been in no doubt that what they were doing was actively abusive and therefore wrong. Not just out of synch with current day thoughts & practice; but plain wrong. Not to mention that dishing out that sort of treatment, particularly to dogs not actually doing anything really offensive, is every bit as counter-productive as Hired Dog and others have said. There is no hypocrisy in accepting that there are limits on actions, and that lines should never be crossed.

by Kaylee on 30 June 2020 - 17:06

Maybe in KNPV's case it was quite a large minority of trainers; but they can surely have been in no doubt that what they were doing was actively abusive and therefore wrong. Not just out of synch with current day thoughts & practice; but plain wrong. Not to mention that dishing out that sort of treatment, particularly to dogs not actually doing anything really offensive, is every bit as counter-productive as Hired Dog and others have said. There is no hypocrisy in accepting that there are limits on actions, and that lines should never be crossed.

 

Cheers for this Hundmutter! KNPV, IPO, the backyard or anywhere there's no reason or excuse for dishing out this kind of treatment. Just plain wrong indeed. The dogs in the video did not deserve this.


by apple on 30 June 2020 - 21:06

As I said before, part of the KNPV hardcore training culture is to quickly wash marginal dogs so that the gene pool of Mal X’s continues to produce dogs that can fight really bad guys on the street. This is the opposite of FCI sanctioned IGP/IPO where they have removed stick hits. IMO, many of the police k-9 handlers in the U.S. and their dogs are subpar and getting worse. It is kind of like the training Navy Seals receive. Only a small minority can tolerate the stress and the ones that can are the best of the best. All the sports are becoming softer and easier for the dogs which will and has resulted in a weaker gene pool.

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 01 July 2020 - 04:07

I think with that reasoning they run the risk of creating 'marginal dogs'.


Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 01 July 2020 - 04:07

Apple, you surely cannot equate stick hits with those kicks ? No decoy I ever saw who used actual hits or touches with the stick overdid the risk of injury; or laid it on like a beating. Kicking, however, risks injury, sometimes severe. Not to mention mental trauma. Let's understand that the kicks on the video supplied by Emory were solid kicks, not 'foot nudges' a la Ceasar Milan.


BlackMalinois

by BlackMalinois on 01 July 2020 - 05:07

 

 


Well let me say this ......nobody was arrested when there was no hidden camera and wasn,t broadcast this
on National sensation television, cruel and punsihment happens also in IPO,ringsport in the past.

The video shows only a small moment from the total picture ,when you cut the rewarding and show only
the bad part of the training and repeat this over and over ...wollaaa everybody believes all KNPV trainers are animal abusers thats NO TRUE....have visit hundreds KNPV training here in Holland have decoyed many dogs so I know this first hand. Hard training and correction is something the KNPV culture from long time ago when things happen much worser than that video, I don, t go in details..But over the years we see more and more trainers work with modern positive training methods .And yes idiot handlers are still excist also in IGP or ringsport

I have said on this forum for many times the modern LE Police dog is more and more specialized as a tracking and detection dog
Tracking and detection dogs works most part with rewarding and with less stress, most detection and tracking dogs work with natural drives and pleasure, this is what most police departments require  today, a driven dog with will to please not a dog who is trained with stress and punsihment.I,m a big fan from hard oldschool KNPV dogs, but most police handlers don,t have the skills today to control such of dogs ,so even today we see a different typ of dog who is most part adapted to a police K9 handler even the LE street dogs, a wrong match between K9 handler and dog can be  very dangerous in some situations.

 

 


by Hired Dog on 01 July 2020 - 05:07

Black Malinois, I agree with you on what you posted. Abuse exists across the spectrum in any sport involving animals when there is a price at the end, be it IPO, any of the Ring sports, etc.
Indeed, I am also a fan of the old dogs that the KNPV used to produce, but, not so much the methods used to train those dogs.
Yes, I understand that those dogs may have needed that type of "corrections", but, again, it should not be a contest of who has the biggest, meanest, most aggressive, unable to handle dog. It should be about who has the best dog that can absorb and dish out what is necessary to work the streets.


by Hired Dog on 01 July 2020 - 06:07

Valk, I believe the conversation went this way because when we speak about training and using methods proven to work, you disagree with those methods, yet, have never discussed your way of training, so, people are left to assume.
You are correct, most people today do not want dominant dogs, they want pets and that is what drives the market, consumer demands.

On the other hand, there is a difference between dominance and DOMINANCE and I dont know why people would want a TRULY dominant dog because that dog has one single idea in its head, how to please itself, end of story.
If you ever really want to butt heads with a dog, live on the edge, dangerously, own one and it will be an experience you will never forget.
I believe that what you and others call dominant is a dog that has a good level of social aggression and a big appetite for fighting which is great, but, not the same thing as a dominant dog.
I enjoy the latter, not the first and I have found a lot of them a pleasure to work with. Again, the serious working dog field is, I believe, full of people with the desire to believe they own the biggest, baddest dog ever and that drives the myths and the exaggerations that you hear about how dominant and how aggressive and what a man eater, blah, blah that dog is/was.





 


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