DM and breeding. - Page 2

Pedigree Database

 
Koots

by Koots on 16 September 2020 - 14:09

I like what you said, BE. Exceptional is dependent on who is doing the rating of such dog, and their criteria. Nice to see you explain YOUR 'yardstick' measure.

by duke1965 on 16 September 2020 - 14:09

BE the carrier can produce carrier and at risk, same as the at risk dog, that is taking feelings over proven facts, kindoff the same as some people do in politics today LOL

Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 16 September 2020 - 14:09

Duke, no, I'm not going with feelings. I'm going with what gives me the least amount of chance to get an carrier/at risk dog.

If I have a clear female and I breed a carrier to that clear female, I have a 50% percent chance to either get clear or carrier. That's not the same as if I breed an at risk dog to a clear female and only get carriers. Why would I stack my chances against myself if I'm looking for a possible female that I hold back? Especially if I like both dogs equally and both dogs have a pedigree that would match? Of course I go with the male where I at least have a chance to get a clear female. It has absolutely nothing to do with feelings.

I'm not shying away from risks at all. I'm known to take risks, just look at my C litter. But why would you set yourself up for all carriers if you have a male of the same caliber and liking that can give you a 50% for clear/carrier?

 


by jettasmom on 16 September 2020 - 15:09

Why is it so important to have a clear versus a carrier. That said dog who is a carrier will not be at risk according to.....not sure because it’s not proven an at risk carrier or clear dog will ever get DM.

If there is proof that at risk dog will get DM please show me.

As you said BE, a clear to an at risk dog can produce carriers or clear. 50/50%.

Has anyone bred to an at risk dog to know the answer??? I doubt it.

I believe most breeders don’t breed to an at risk dog us because they won’t be able to sell puppies even though the pups could be exceptional and help the breed go in the right direction versus how it is now.

I’m just wanting to know opinions and appreciate others opinions. I feel the topic is for good discussion.

Yes, I’ve had people want to breed to my male but I said no because he is at risk but again nothing proven to show my dog will for sure get DM.

Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 16 September 2020 - 15:09

I like what you said, BE. Exceptional is dependent on who is doing the rating of such dog, and their criteria. Nice to see you explain YOUR 'yardstick' measure.

Thanks, I just feel like there is a true need for solid dogs. Simple, solid dogs. Having a training business I see so many GSDs that shouldn't even exist in the first place. So personally, I want to keep it like my dad. Temperament and Environmental stability is everything. Workability is implied and there really are dogs that I like for different reasons. I have a friend with a female whose jaw isn't the strongest but her hunt drive is unmatched and unlike something I've ever seen. That dog lives to hunt. If she was mine, I'd take that dog and look for a male with a big ol strong jaw. Her hunt drive is beyond exceptional. I have good hunt drive in my dogs, but this dog? As a German Shepherd, a hunting machine that I've yet to find again. To me, she's exceptional in hunt drive and it's something that I'd try to utilize just to see what I get. Her temperament is super, she's social, super environmentally stable. Her only weakness is her weak jaw. I'd absolutely take the risk if she'd reproduce that huntdrive.


by jettasmom on 16 September 2020 - 16:09

GSD is suppose to be versatile not just exceptional in one area but all areas, why can’t breeders breed for all aspects of work, pet home as well. Ex: breeding just for AKC OB or just for IPG.

GSD should be able to do it all, not all at once mind you. You see dogs titled only in IPG but no others venues. Breed for high drive prey monsters yet when you want them to settle in the house they can’t. That is what I see lacking in the breed plus other areas.

My point is not breeding to a dog who shows every aspect of a true GSD lots to bring to the table with the right female because they are at risk for DM that has yet to be proven the dog will ever get DM is just crazy. IMO

Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 16 September 2020 - 19:09

If there is proof that at risk dog will get DM please show me. As you said BE, a clear to an at risk dog can produce carriers or clear. 50/50%. Has anyone bred to an at risk dog to know the answer??? I doubt it.
 


at risk x clear = 100% Carrier that means, that every dog in this litter is a carrier.
carrier x clear = 50% Carrier/Clear
An at risk dog cannot produce a clear dog.
An At Risk dog can at the most produce a Carrier.
With a Carrier to Clear you have a 50% chance.
With Carrier to Carrier you have a 25% chance to get clear, 50% to get carrier and 25% to get at risk.
At risk does not produce a clear dog. Ever! If you get a clear dog out of an At Risk dog, either the At Risk result was wrong, or the Clear result was wrong.


Why is it so important to have a clear versus a carrier. That said dog who is a carrier will not be at risk according to.....not sure because it’s not proven an at risk carrier or clear dog will ever get DM.

Why? Because you can't keep breeding every carrier to another carrier to yet another carrier.
I want as many clear dogs as possible. That doesn't mean I won't breed to an "At Risk" dog if the dog has what I'm looking for and I can't find that anywhere else.

As for your comments about versatility and not being exceptional in one thing. Sometimes you have to breed to a dog that is exceptional in something in order to get more versatility. Not every dog is perfect and sometimes you need an extreme in order to keep your balance.

Breeding isn't all that simple.

You can't just keep breeding one extreme to another either. Sometimes you need a little more edge, sometimes you need to breed to a lower drive dog because you can't go any higher since you would tap into too much nerve. Sometimes you have a dog that surprisingly produces undersize with a certain combination, sometimes you get too much size. Sometimes you have to look for dogs where you can get away from Fero, or Pike, or Ellute, or Tom... or even my beloved Gildo... And on top of all of that. On top of Temperament, Character, Nerve, Workability comes health.

Everything has to fit.

Everything!

For me that also includes "Healthy and without fault" (it was literally my Dads Motto, he would not keep a female that wasn't perfect in every aspect). That's what the German Shepherd is supposed to be. If I can produce that by selectively breeding for it to produce my next breeding female, than I will. If I have a "Clear" breeding bitch, I can actually breed to an "At Risk" dog.  
 


by jettasmom on 16 September 2020 - 19:09

BE I understand all that in regards to breeding an at risk and carrier.
I was asking where is the proof an at risk dog will ever get DM? Carriers are not at risk ever so why worry about carrier to carrier. Much more to worry about. Now, I the proof comes out and an at risk dog will for sure end up with DM then no I would never consider it.

I know breeding to the best you can gives u better odds but nothing is guaranteed. What are the odds of improving on one thing?

My main agenda was seeing if anyone would breed to a dog who yes IMO as well as my TD club members and others who just see him out and about an exceptional dog who I feel might be able to improve on many issues the GSD currently have.

As I said no guarantees but nothing is.

Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 16 September 2020 - 20:09

I know breeding to the best you can gives u better odds but nothing is guaranteed. What are the odds of improving on one thing?

 

With this type of thinking we wouldn't have breeds.

Breeds were literally created by selecting that one unique thing that makes a Retriever a Retriever and a Pointer a Pointer.

Shepherds are supposed to be versatile. If I have lack of hunt drive it means my dog is less versatile so why not select a female or a male with stronger hunt drive? Especially if he's known to produce it. I'm not just looking at the male itself, I'm trying to look at the progeny and know what the dog produced. Now if he hasn't had any litters I'm trying to look into the family tree of the dog and what has been produced there. Also, it doesn't mean the dog is lacking in everything else. I'll never compromise temperament, stability or nerve, ever!  That's the base for every dog. If that's not there I'm walking away. I've also learned to stay away from specific bloodlines because I've seen too much environmental instability in there. It doesn't matter how nice the dog is, I won't touch it just because I know the potential for environmentally unstable dogs is there when this particular dog is within the first three generations.

This is why breeding is an art. The more generations you personally know, they more dogs you can watch growing up, they more dogs you have access to watching, they more information you have and know how to use and know what type of combination might click and what doesnt. The better you stack the decks in your favor.

Otherwise, we might as well just throw everything out the window and just put dogs together willy nilly. Trying to improve on something is the very definition of selective breeding.


by ValK on 16 September 2020 - 20:09

"If she was mine, I'd take that dog and look for a male with a big ol strong jaw."

in developing dog's heavy bone base it doesn't work that way.

b.t.w. why do you need high hunt? GSD never envisioned as hunt breed. for that was developed lot of other, specialized breeds.






 


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